Where does Sidney Crosby Rank All-Time?

[scottkoz20]

love the discussion


I said top 9 for Crosby, but let me throw another name that I think has not been discussed into this debate, Mark Messier. I'm not going to make a case one way or the other but I believe he needs to be in the conversation.


Carry On

[09232003]

OF course, I am influenced by my era, but with so many great players out there it is hard for me to put Crosby in the top 10. Also - I would separate goalies from skaters.

My top 10 would include in no particular order, except for #1 & #2: Gretz, Lemieux, Yzerman, Howe, Hull, Jagr, Richard, Orr...

I don't put much stock in the "he never won a cup" argument since there are many great players who've never won one. Also - you have to consider that Crosby has Malkin, too. Would Crosby have been as successful without Malkin?

I think of it the other way, would malkin be as successful without Crosby

[Zuback]

Bobby Orr is number 1.

The reason is that he not only changed the offensive game but the defensive game as well.

No one not even Gretzky, Howe, Richard, etc can say they were 2 dimensional.

There is a reason he was and won the top defenceman award so many times and also was the league MVP.

If it was not for the Canadian’s dominance during his time he would have likely won a few more Stanley Cups as well.

I never saw him play, but from the videos I have seen and talking to many hockey fans who did see him play, they all rank him as the best player ever. Period.

[FactoryOfSadness]

NHL is 100 years old and the game is drastically different today, heck way different now than just a few years ago. But from decade to decade it has really changed. Equipment was the first thing that really changed it. Then the game was changed by Orr and then Gretzky. Then all the rules changes its not even close to what it was. With that in mind I still have to look at all the GREATS of the game over the 100 years. I just can’t put Crosby in the list that high, one of the 50 greatest (including Goalies) yes. That for sure. Is he a cross era or generation talent, no. I don’t think he’d be close to the same player in any era pre 1990 heck maybe not even in the 90’s. There are some players today I feel could play in any era but today’s hockey is just to flashy, fast, and pretty. Guys can’t play defense and aren’t allowed to, idiot Betmann thinks all the fans want are goals when what we want is good hockey, the same hockey from year to year. Is Crosby great, sure today he’s one of the best players, but he’s not in the same League with Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Richard, Shore, Lemuix, Hull, Beliveau, Messier, Lefluer, Roy, Dryden, Brodeaur, Harvey, Sawchuck, Bourque, Morentz, Esposito, Potvin, Bossy, Toe Blake, Sid Abel, King Clancy, Johnny Bower, and lots more. He’s in there company top 50 but def not top of the list. I just can’t say he could play in any era. Come on Put Gretz Richard Orr etc in today’s hockey and they’d dominate around all these cup cakes.

[Devlin]

Bobby Orr is number 1.

The reason is that he not only changed the offensive game but the defensive game as well.

No one not even Gretzky, Howe, Richard, etc can say they were 2 dimensional.

There is a reason he was and won the top defenceman award so many times and also was the league MVP.

If it was not for the Canadian’s dominance during his time he would have likely won a few more Stanley Cups as well.

I never saw him play, but from the videos I have seen and talking to many hockey fans who did see him play, they all rank him as the best player ever. Period.

agree, D men did not score much at all, Pilote, had what 12 goals one yr. Orr led the league in scoring, good shot blocker,could drop the gloves, unselfish . hated the bruins then, they were so good and it seems all they did was score and fight. Unfortunately for them there was Dryden and parent.

[Devlin]

NHL is 100 years old and the game is drastically different today, heck way different now than just a few years ago. But from decade to decade it has really changed. Equipment was the first thing that really changed it. Then the game was changed by Orr and then Gretzky. Then all the rules changes its not even close to what it was. With that in mind I still have to look at all the GREATS of the game over the 100 years. I just can’t put Crosby in the list that high, one of the 50 greatest (including Goalies) yes. That for sure. Is he a cross era or generation talent, no. I don’t think he’d be close to the same player in any era pre 1990 heck maybe not even in the 90’s. There are some players today I feel could play in any era but today’s hockey is just to flashy, fast, and pretty. Guys can’t play defense and aren’t allowed to, idiot Betmann thinks all the fans want are goals when what we want is good hockey, the same hockey from year to year. Is Crosby great, sure today he’s one of the best players, but he’s not in the same League with Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Richard, Shore, Lemuix, Hull, Beliveau, Messier, Lefluer, Roy, Dryden, Brodeaur, Harvey, Sawchuck, Bourque, Morentz, Esposito, Potvin, Bossy, Toe Blake, Sid Abel, King Clancy, Johnny Bower, and lots more. He’s in there company top 50 but def not top of the list. I just can’t say he could play in any era. Come on Put Gretz Richard Orr etc in today’s hockey and they’d dominate around all these cup cakes.

lots more.

[30ranfordfan]

I always enjoy conversations like this - but I have to admit that I have a very hard time taking many opinions too seriously: That includes the options of people "in the game" like Players, Coaches, etc. Everyone's list comes with (at least) minimal blinders on.

The truth is: If you ask someone who is 25 years old "Who is the best player you ever saw play?" The answer is going to be Crosby.

If the person is closer 40 years old, they're going to tell you Gretzky. Anyone who's old enough to remember how Orr looked on the ice, they're going to name him.

No, not everyone will agree with that specific player - but there is usually a fairly broad consensus about "best of his generation", without there being one for all time. There are some that argue Lemieux was a better player than Gretzky, but they're in the minority. Small minority. I have never heard anyone argue that Bobby Orr was not the best player of his generation... but he falls somewhere in the top 3 all time on most lists.

Myself, I would name Gretzky as the best ever - but again... I'm in that "close to 40" age group, and that's the answer you'll typically get from someone my age. I have heard arguments for both Howe & Orr as the greatest of all time that have given me pause to think about it... but I think really it comes down to the fact that Gretzky was so dominant for a long time, has records that will never be touched, and I can remember watching him play like that.

So, the question. Where does Crosby rank? I'll give you my top 10 (yes, Crosby is in it). I am not including goalies in this list - I think they make this question even more complicated, and comparing across eras is already a mess: To be perfectly honest - I don't even have much of a concept of how good or great a player prior to the 50s was, so how can I include them in this list?

My top 10:

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Richard
Crosby
Jagr
Lidstrom
Esposito
Messier

With how good Crosby has been so far, in all honesty -Yes... if he were to retire tomorrow, I think he still has to be in the conversation with these guys. He really has been that good. I don't even care about the 3 Cups so much (that's the cherry on top). If they had lost last year, for example, he'd still be #6 on my list.

Does he have a shot to move higher on the list? Probably not. That top 5 is pretty hard to crack... I would have given you the same names, in the same order, 20 years ago... and I expect I will in another 20. The 6-10 slots?? I'll be very surprised if someone asked me to rank my top-10 all time players in the year 2040, and Crosby, Jagr, Lidstrom are not still on the list.

[Jameis1of1]

^ Great post and I agree with just about everything you said about the different eras and how fans of different ages view things.It's the same with basketball and football which I know a lot more about ... it's pretty clear to anyone with a knowledge of the history of football that Otto Graham's resume blows Tom Brady and especially Joe Montana's out of the water but fans under 50 have never even heard of them and won't even list him in their top 20.

However, it's also clear that Otto Graham couldn't even play QB in the modern NFL as guys in his era were pretty horrible "throwers of the football" compared to the QBs today.The same can be said with a guy like Bill Russell in the NBA ... older fans think he's the GOAT and somehow convince themselves that he would dominate todays NBA centers ... that's completely insane.

Bill Russell not only had an extremely limited offensive game, he was basically the exact size as Tayshaun Prince, a modern small forward. Other all-time greats in their eras like George Mikan, Bob Cousy, etc., would have a hard time even earning more than 12-16 minutes of playing time a game in the modern NBA as they simply didn't have the athleticism to hang with todays players.I don't know much about the history of hockey but it seems sort of absurd to me to think that guys from 50 years ago would be able to play at anywhere near as high a level in the modern game as the athletes are all bigger/stronger/faster and the coaching is more advanced ... but, who knows, maybe hockey is an exception to the rule and "skill" is the only thing that matters and the old guys would dominate, I don't know.

I love reading all the comments though and I will say that after doing some research on Orr I can definitely see why some think he is the GOAT, even ahead of Gretzky. The reason I say this is simply because he was obviously the greatest two-way player in hockey history and hockey is 50% defense ... that is primarily why I don't think NBA players like Steve Nash and Steph Curry should ever even be in an MVP conversation, let alone win such an award and scoff at anyone who thinks either of those guys is a top 20 all-time player, as they are both ONE-WAY players only ... unlike true two-way stars like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Kawhi Leonard, etc.

[sparty07]

I don't know much about the history of hockey but it seems sort of absurd to me to think that guys from 50 years ago would be able to play at anywhere near as high a level in the modern game as the athletes are all bigger/stronger/faster and the coaching is more advanced ... but, who knows, maybe hockey is an exception to the rule and "skill" is the only thing that matters and the old guys would dominate, I don't know.

One flaw in your logic is that you assume that the guys in history would not have the same strength or coaching advantages they have today. If you were to take a Howe and give him all the nutritional, conditioning, strength training, advanced metric tracking, etc that the players of today have, the difference (in my opinion) between him and any of the other modern athletes being discussed. For me, hockey greats have an innate sense with the puck (offense or defense), without that they wouldn't be where they are no matter what the strength, skill, coaching, etc. The great players like Gretzky have a sense of where the player is going to be and gets the puck there before their teammate makes his move. That type of unteachable skill is what helps set them apart.

[Jameis1of1]

One flaw in your logic is that you assume that the guys in history would not have the same strength or coaching advantages they have today. If you were to take a Howe and give him all the nutritional, conditioning, strength training, advanced metric tracking, etc that the players of today have, the difference (in my opinion) between him and any of the other modern athletes being discussed.

The same can be said for old era athletes in other sports as well ... for example had Babe Ruth had modern knowledge, equipment and the like he could have hit 100 home runs a year, etc ... but ... that's all based on "what-ifs" rather than what really was, and I tend to focus on what really happened. You certainly have a solid point though.

For me, hockey greats have an innate sense with the puck (offense or defense), without that they wouldn't be where they are no matter what the strength, skill, coaching, etc. The great players like Gretzky have a sense of where the player is going to be and gets the puck there before their teammate makes his move. That type of unteachable skill is what helps set them apart.

That makes a lot of sense.