The Official JAMEIS WINSTON Thread

[jplcom]

I still admire your passion for this player... but this is a useless stat. I would take any of those other QBs in that ranking or in your thread over Winston. And I think others would agree. This is a stat that "fan boys/girls" use to make their case about a particular player being better than they really are. Here's something else for you... those other QBs you mentioned were franchise QBs, unless Winston impresses this year, he's likely done in Tampa. Stats be damned.

I agree/disagree. I do think it's a misleading stat but I don't know if he's done for in Tampa. It's really hard to find competent quarterbacking in the NFL and even the most uncharitable opinions would leave Winston as competent. It's more likely the head coach and/or GM would go and new people brought in to take the team to the next level.

In the last 20 years of NFL football, the ONLY QB's that have a better 4th quarter, tight game, passer rating than Jameis are Aaron Rodgers, Romo and Russell Wilson, that's it. Not Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Ryan, Luck, Favre, Rivers, etc.

My question to this stat would be how many times have all these QBs been put into this situation. 4th Quarter passer rating when a team is +/-7 is rather specific. Did Pro Football Focus go through play by play to ferret out all situations where a QB was in that position and account for each pass attempt and result? How many attempts did every QB make in those scenarios and was there a minimum attempt cutoff? Did they include all overtime statistics as well since that would naturally fit within the scoring parameters and be just as pressure filled as a 4th quarter game. Reminds me of all that Lambeau Field mystique garbage where "Brett Favre never lost a home game at Lambeau in the playoffs against an NFC team when the temperature was below 32 degrees".

[Rabs]

I don't think Jameis is an incompetent QB. He has a lot of the tools that are needed to succeed in the NFL especially size and arm strength.

Is he a top tier QB? No. Can he end up being? Sure. But he will need to cut down on his turnovers and improve his decision making to do so.

His off the field issues are a huge problem which everyone knows. That is the biggest reason why so many people don't like him and root for him to fail.

[Jameis1of1]

I still admire your passion for this player... but this is a useless stat. I would take any of those other QBs in that ranking or in your thread over Winston. And I think others would agree. This is a stat that "fan boys/girls" use to make their case about a particular player being better than they really are. Here's something else for you... those other QBs you mentioned were franchise QBs, unless Winston impresses this year, he's likely done in Tampa. Stats be damned.

A "useless stat", eh? Pro Football Focus doesn't think so and neither do I. It's one of the best stats to measure the elusive "clutch" component of a player as it boils every game down to the most high-leverage moments and takes one's passer rating ONLY from those tense moments. That said, it doesn't surprise me to see Jameis on the list as anyone that watched him in college knows the young man has the "clutch gene" in spades.

As for some of your other statements … I hope you're joking.

Firstly, it's silly to say that you'd take the other QBs on the list over Jameis, as Jameis was just 23 years old last year and has only played 3 seasons, while the other guys are either retired or have played many, many years … I'm quite sure you would have taken hundreds of former NFL QB's over Aaron Rodgers when he was 23 as he was still sitting on the bench holding a clipboard at that time.

Secondly, if you think Winston is done in Tampa, I think you're silly. The owners, coaches and players have all backed him 100% and he's under contract for next year … personally I'd be very surprised if he's not a Buc next year. 24 year olds who happen to be #1 ALL-TIME in NFL HISTORY in both passing yards & passing TDs at that age, and who have gotten markedly better each year they've been in the league, aren't usually run out of town. However, even if Jameis is playing somewhere else next year, so what? Leaving Tampa sure worked out well for Steve Young and Doug Williams!

I have to agree he is not in the top tier of QBs right now!

I would certainly agree with that, depending on how many players you put in the "top tier". Right now I have him in the top 10 with Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Rivers, Smith, Roethlisberger, Wilson and Ryan … and if all of those players were to only have "average" players at every position around them, I wouldn't have him at #10 but closer to #6 … his line and run game has been so, so, so bad for the past 2 years it's been a joke.

I agree/disagree. I do think it's a misleading stat but I don't know if he's done for in Tampa. It's really hard to find competent quarterbacking in the NFL and even the most uncharitable opinions would leave Winston as competent. It's more likely the head coach and/or GM would go and new people brought in to take the team to the next level.

The coaches have been pretty lackluster … the GM however has been quite good notwithstanding his insane pick of a kicker in the 2nd round … but yeah, I'd be surprised if Jameis isn't back in 2019 and honestly if he doesn't sign a long-term extension as well, he's the best QB the franchise has ever had by a mile and he's still insanely young … Jameis is just 6 months older than Patriots ROOKIE QB Danny Etling!

My question to this stat would be how many times have all these QBs been put into this situation. 4th Quarter passer rating when a team is +/-7 is rather specific. Did Pro Football Focus go through play by play to ferret out all situations where a QB was in that position and account for each pass attempt and result? How many attempts did every QB make in those scenarios and was there a minimum attempt cutoff? Did they include all overtime statistics as well since that would naturally fit within the scoring parameters and be just as pressure filled as a 4th quarter game. Reminds me of all that Lambeau Field mystique garbage where "Brett Favre never lost a home game at Lambeau in the playoffs against an NFC team when the temperature was below 32 degrees".

YES, PFF actually calculated every single pass in one score games in the 4th quarter over the past 20 years … that said, the stat is nothing like some Brett Favre (and I LOVE Favre) "weather" based stat … it's one of the best "clutch" stats available.

[Jameis1of1]

I don't think Jameis is an incompetent QB.

That's good, as I might have to have you checked if you did as that would mean you weren't living in reality, hahahaha

He has a lot of the tools that are needed to succeed in the NFL especially size and arm strength.

No doubt … he's probably in the top 5 in regards to arm talent, along with Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Stafford and Wentz ... Josh Allen (who may never be any good) and Cam both have cannons (as does Lamar Jackson) but are wildly inaccurate and don't throw with anticipation so I don't include them.

Is he a top tier QB? No.

I'd say it depends how many players are in your "top tier" … if it's only 3 (Brady/Rodgers/Brees) that would eliminate a lot of guys I personally would consider "top tier".

Can he end up being? Sure. But he will need to cut down on his turnovers and improve his decision making to do so.

I don't know about that … the media is in love with guys who don't turn the ball over, even if they also can't push the ball down the field, make all the throws and "carry" an offense as they've seen Brady win rings that way and have been spoiled by Rodgers who can do it all (when healthy) … but … the history of the game has been dominated by QBs that can carry an offense, make every throw and really push the ball down the field, and Jameis can do those three things in spades. Personally, I don't want to see his aggressiveness coached out of him and have him start dinking and dunking and "game managing" like many other QBs … I want to see Favre 2.0!

His off the field issues are a huge problem which everyone knows. That is the biggest reason why so many people don't like him and root for him to fail.

I agree, but, the fact is, he's still NEVER even been arrested or charged, let alone convicted, of anything, at anytime, in his entire life. And, everyone that knows him still raves about him, even after the "public relations suspension". However, the media likes to ignore that in favor of slamming the young man every chance they get … in fact just today I took the extremely biased Tampa Bay Times to task and they had a little flip-out … one of their reporters even dm'd me "cautioning me" … I laughed at him and told him I stand by every word I tweet and am not afraid of lawsuits. Shortly after that a whole bunch of other bloggers and the like ran with the story and piled on the Tampa Bay Times and now it seems every Bucs fan on Twitter knows the Tampa Bay Times has "Winston Derangement Syndrome" and is so biased they will literally misquote their own sources to make it appear they said negative things about Jameis, when in reality those sources, said only positive things about Jameis … I mean, wow, that's as unethical as it gets for a mere sports reporter, and to think such nonsense is happening right in Tampa is sad … it makes me think about when the Orlando media ran Shaq out of Orlando … those Floridians should have learned their lesson as they may just lose another future HOF'er in Jameis if they keep up their insanity.

[SuperZeke50]

The simple fact that you think Winston is a top 10 QB speaks for itself. You're on an island there. Sorry... that's just plain delusional. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Wilson, Wentz, Watson, Rivers, Ryan, Luck, Stafford, Cousins, Newton, Carr... I would take ANY of those guys before Winston right now. He is middle of the pack at BEST.

A "useless stat", eh? Pro Football Focus doesn't think so and neither do I. It's one of the best stats to measure the elusive "clutch" component of a player as it boils every game down to the most high-leverage moments and takes one's passer rating ONLY from those tense moments. That said, it doesn't surprise me to see Jameis on the list as anyone that watched him in college knows the young man has the "clutch gene" in spades.

As for some of your other statements … I hope you're joking.

Firstly, it's silly to say that you'd take the other QBs on the list over Jameis, as Jameis was just 23 years old last year and has only played 3 seasons, while the other guys are either retired or have played many, many years … I'm quite sure you would have taken hundreds of former NFL QB's over Aaron Rodgers when he was 23 as he was still sitting on the bench holding a clipboard at that time.

Secondly, if you think Winston is done in Tampa, I think you're silly. The owners, coaches and players have all backed him 100% and he's under contract for next year … personally I'd be very surprised if he's not a Buc next year. 24 year olds who happen to be #1 ALL-TIME in NFL HISTORY in both passing yards & passing TDs at that age, and who have gotten markedly better each year they've been in the league, aren't usually run out of town. However, even if Jameis is playing somewhere else next year, so what? Leaving Tampa sure worked out well for Steve Young and Doug Williams!



I would certainly agree with that, depending on how many players you put in the "top tier". Right now I have him in the top 10 with Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Rivers, Smith, Roethlisberger, Wilson and Ryan … and if all of those players were to only have "average" players at every position around them, I wouldn't have him at #10 but closer to #6 … his line and run game has been so, so, so bad for the past 2 years it's been a joke.



The coaches have been pretty lackluster … the GM however has been quite good notwithstanding his insane pick of a kicker in the 2nd round … but yeah, I'd be surprised if Jameis isn't back in 2019 and honestly if he doesn't sign a long-term extension as well, he's the best QB the franchise has ever had by a mile and he's still insanely young … Jameis is just 6 months older than Patriots ROOKIE QB Danny Etling!




YES, PFF actually calculated every single pass in one score games in the 4th quarter over the past 20 years … that said, the stat is nothing like some Brett Favre (and I LOVE Favre) "weather" based stat … it's one of the best "clutch" stats available.

[Jameis1of1]

The simple fact that you think Winston is a top 10 QB speaks for itself. You're on an island there. Sorry... that's just plain delusional. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Wilson, Wentz, Watson, Rivers, Ryan, Luck, Stafford, Cousins, Newton, Carr... I would take ANY of those guys before Winston right now. He is middle of the pack at BEST.

You're entitled to your opinion, even when it's wrong.

I'm not even close to "on an island" as many statisticians and the like, after breaking down all of last year's numbers have Jameis in their top 10. Even anti-Jameis guys in the msm were commenting on how they were so "surprised" he came out so good when they looked at all the numbers, as the "narrative" all year was just being spun based on a glance at the league standings and the Bucs "team" was horrific.

As for your list, you lost credibility listing Cam (Jameis blows him out of the water statistically), Luck (hasn't played in over a year - though I agree he's top 10 if truly healthy), Cousins (Jameis bests him statistically), Carr (Jameis obliterates him statistically) and Watson (can we see the kid play a half season first?) … and if you ONLY remove those guys from your list, you have just 9 guys listed …

I mean, come on "SuperZeke50", how in the world could you list Cam and not list Dak, as Dak was quite a bit better than Cam last year and even a little better than Derek Carr, though none of those 3 QBs are even close to "Top 10".

Anyways, I haven't leaked my top 20 statistical breakdown chart on Twitter yet as I'm planning to use it in an upcoming article I'm writing for a Tampa media site, but, I'll attach two charts to this email that will show you how Derek Carr and Cam Newton don't even belong in the same discussion as Jameis.

2017 STAT COMPARISONS.JPG

2017 STAT COMPS WITH AROD RUSS and CAM.JPG

In regards to my larger chart that I haven't published yet … I can tell you that Jameis comes in right at #10, slightly behind both Matt Ryan and Ben Roethlisberger who tied for 8th … and again, the chart is not my "opinion" or some silly "Top 10" list based on bias … it's a pure statistical breakdown of ALL 11 of the individual QB stats available on pro-football-reference.com and Jameis does in fact and indisputably rank in the top 10 right at #10. Also, of those top 10 QBs, only Matt Stafford had less run support than Jameis.

So, as usual, I'm just not the person to buy the media's lazy narratives or the type of person who really appreciates mere "opinion polls" … I like hard data and the hard data says Jameis is a top 10 QB whether anyone wants to admit it or not. He won't get the recognition he deserves until his "team" can get into the playoffs, which will mean his defense will need to stop being the worst in the entire league and his O-Line and run game will need to stop being among the worst in the league … but … until then, people who actually do their research will continue to know what a talent Jameis is ...

[SuperZeke50]

You are on an island when it comes to general consensus. Stats are great for Fantasy Football... they mean nothing when it comes to the intangibles needed to be successful, and more importantly... WIN. Where is Winston being drafted in Fantasy Leagues this year? Not the top 10, that's for sure. And Fantasy is based off statistics. As for listing Cam, the guy is as much of a knucklehead as Winston, but he actually wins. He at least made it to a Super Bowl. Winston can't do anything but be the division doormat. I'll continue being lazy and believing the "eye" test. When the guy does something worth complimenting, I'll give him the credit he deserves.

[jplcom]

You are on an island when it comes to general consensus. Stats are great for Fantasy Football... they mean nothing when it comes to the intangibles needed to be successful, and more importantly... WIN. Where is Winston being drafted in Fantasy Leagues this year? Not the top 10, that's for sure. And Fantasy is based off statistics. As for listing Cam, the guy is as much of a knucklehead as Winston, but he actually wins. He at least made it to a Super Bowl. Winston can't do anything but be the division doormat. I'll continue being lazy and believing the "eye" test. When the guy does something worth complimenting, I'll give him the credit he deserves.

Is the argument that Winston is an inferior QB because he doesn't win and fails the eye test, or that he's an inferior QB because he's not getting drafted highly in fantasy football? His general statistics have not been bad and have generally trended better on a per game basis since his rookie year which was only 3 seasons ago.

As for winning - Roethlisberger (why isn't he a knucklehead?) improved from 7-8 to 10-5 from his 3rd to 4th year. Brees went 2-9 to 11-4 his 3rd to 4th. Rodgers went from a backup to 6-10 his 3rd to 4th. Cousins 1-4 to 9-7 (he sure doesn't pass the eye test for winning). Stafford sure as heck doesn't pass any metric for winning with his 60-65 career record. I think Winston is being judged uncharitably with his record as he doesn't have the experience most of these guys have yet. One can either argue he hasn't got the winning record (fair!) and compare him to other QBs in that arena, or argue he doesn't have the stats and compare him based on that metric. Picking the best statistical QBs and top winning QBs then making Winston compete with that combined list is not fair.

[SuperZeke50]

The argument can be made for both. He doesn't win. Fact. And if his stats were as amazing as I'm told, he'd be the #1 drafted QB in Fantasy. He's not, he's middle of the pack. I have never said he was inferior... I said he was not Top 10.

As for Winning, Roethlisberger is a knucklehead... but he's won, at the highest level. Brees and Rodgers have won, at the highest level. Can't really argue your point on Cousins. As for my judgement on Winston, it's mostly based on the fact that this thread is meant to tell people how wonderful he is based on statistics. As you said, it's too early to tell what type of a career he will have... but to inflate him based on the first 3 years of his career based on his stats is ludicrous. The thread owner references his running game and defense as excuses... his stats would be WORSE if he had those things. His numbers are a product of the the team he plays for, not his talent. Frankly, he's done nothing to warrant consideration as a Top 10 NFL quarterback... eye test, stats or whatever metric you are using. As I said, when he does something worthwhile, I will happily eat my words. Love me some competitive banter! Football season is ALMOST HERE!!!!!

[Jameis1of1]

You are on an island when it comes to general consensus. Stats are great for Fantasy Football... they mean nothing when it comes to the intangibles needed to be successful, and more importantly... WIN. Where is Winston being drafted in Fantasy Leagues this year? Not the top 10, that's for sure. And Fantasy is based off statistics.

There were a ton of people calling for Winston to be a top 4 fantasy QB before the suspension … missing 3 games hurt his fantasy value. However, fantasy means nothing to me, so I'm not sure why we're talking about that.

As for listing Cam, the guy is as much of a knucklehead as Winston, but he actually wins. He at least made it to a Super Bowl. Winston can't do anything but be the division doormat. I'll continue being lazy and believing the "eye" test. When the guy does something worth complimenting, I'll give him the credit he deserves.

Firstly, Jameis and the Bucs finished in 2nd place in 2016 and only missed the playoffs due to a "tiebreaker" … your memory can't be that short, can it?

Secondly, wins mean next to nothing when assessing individual talent as wins are a TEAM accomplishment, not an individual QB stat. Garbage QBs like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler all won a ring … HOF immortals like Tarkenton, Fouts, Marino, Kelly and Moon never won a single ring in their combined 70+ years in the NFL. Tarkenton didn't even have a mere career winning record until he was in his 30s and HOF immortal Joe Namath retired with a CAREER "losing record" … OBVIOUSLY wins have everything to do with "teams".

Thirdly, you want an "eye test" … watch last year's Monday Night Football game against the Falcons … you may NEVER see a QB play a better game than Jameis played that night … seriously. The guy "missed" on just one throw the entire game, was throwing deep balls and lasers all over the field and was just unreal. Watch it and see what I mean as there's only a handful of QBs in the league today (Rodgers, Luck, Stafford) that can even play a game like that.

Is the argument that Winston is an inferior QB because he doesn't win and fails the eye test, or that he's an inferior QB because he's not getting drafted highly in fantasy football? His general statistics have not been bad and have generally trended better on a per game basis since his rookie year which was only 3 seasons ago.

Exactly … and again, he absolutely passes the eye test … watch the Falcons MNF game … watch a mere highlight tape, Jameis makes plays that only a handful of other QBs are even capable of making.

As for winning - Roethlisberger (why isn't he a knucklehead?) improved from 7-8 to 10-5 from his 3rd to 4th year. Brees went 2-9 to 11-4 his 3rd to 4th. Rodgers went from a backup to 6-10 his 3rd to 4th. Cousins 1-4 to 9-7 (he sure doesn't pass the eye test for winning). Stafford sure as heck doesn't pass any metric for winning with his 60-65 career record. I think Winston is being judged uncharitably with his record as he doesn't have the experience most of these guys have yet. One can either argue he hasn't got the winning record (fair!) and compare him to other QBs in that arena, or argue he doesn't have the stats and compare him based on that metric. Picking the best statistical QBs and top winning QBs then making Winston compete with that combined list is not fair.

That is a very logical, fair and balanced reply and I agree with you 100%. People also seem to pretend that every QB should be expected to win at the same clip, as if all teams are exactly the same outside the QB they start, which is absurd. Aaron Rodgers inherited a 13-3 team and promptly went 6-10 as a 24 year old 4th year player … Jameis inherited the worst team in football, a 2-14 laughing stock and promptly also went 6-10 as a 21 year old rookie. Now, both guys went 6-10 but anyone that doesn't understand Jameis' 6-10 record was infinitely more impressive than Rodgers 6-10 record is just nutty to me.

So, yeah, Jameis, as a 21 year old, drafted to a 2-14 laughing stock, went 6-10 which I believe was "winning" at a clip way above what was expected of him … then the very next year, as a 22 year old, he went 9-7 and only missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker (and by the way he beat multiple playoff teams that year while Stafford and the Lions who got in on the silly tiebreaker never beat a single playoff team). Last year he started 1-0 and then injured his throwing shoulder in the very next game and the season fell apart. That said, Jameis was 16-17 in his first 33 games after being drafted by a team that was just 2-14 the year before drafting him and a team which had won just 16 games in the previous FOUR YEARS before drafting Jameis. To say Jameis doesn't win is just absurd to me … and … even if he didn't, would it really be that the kid who went 26-1 in college and got drafted to the 2-14 team is the one who is a loser in a winning organization, or would it be that the greatest "winner" in NCAA history is being dragged down by the worst losing franchise in the NFC? I think it's obviously the latter.

The argument can be made for both. He doesn't win. Fact.

No, it's not a fact, unless you naively believe every QB is in the same situation. If Baker Mayfield carries the Browns to a 5-11 record this year that will be far, far, far more impressive than if Brian Hoyer (after a Tom Brady injury) guides the Patriots to a 10-6 record. It's completely asinine to just look at "TEAM win percentage" and think that proves whether an INDIVIDUAL player is a "winner" or "loser". Michael Jordan was a winner from the day he entered the NBA … he just needed a TEAM around him that could also win. NFL QB's aren't playing 1-on-1 on a field … obviously.

And if his stats were as amazing as I'm told, he'd be the #1 drafted QB in Fantasy. He's not, he's middle of the pack. I have never said he was inferior... I said he was not Top 10.

If Jameis was able to play all 16 games, he'd probably be a top 4 QB selection in fantasy … the guy averaged 306.9 passing yards per game in the full games he played last year (many of them with an injured throwing shoulder) which obliterated Tom Brady's league-leading ypg number … but fantasy is entirely irrelevant.

As for Winning, Roethlisberger is a knucklehead... but he's won, at the highest level.

HAHAHAHAHA, I'm so glad you brought Big Ben up … I LOVE Big Ben, but I just crack up when people use his first ring as some proof of his greatness. Do you how absolutely pathetic he was in that game? The guy had a 22.6 passer rating! That is just garbage. In fact, Matt Hasslebeck TRIPLED Ben's passer rating in that game and lost, which is just more proof that "wins" are a TEAM accomplishment and not an individual QB stat.

Ben's SuperBowl was one of the worst ever … he completed just 9 passes and threw for just 123 yards with no TD passes and 2 INT's … and accounted for just 42% of his team's offense … garbage! But he "won" and Hasslebeck, who tripled his passer rating and accounted for 308 yards with 1 TD and just 1 turnover while accounting for 75% of his team's offense "lost", so he must be a "loser" … NONSENSE!

Now, I don't say any of the above to bash Big Ben … I love the guy and he's one of my 10 fave QBs to ever play … and he's a future 1st ballot HOF'er … but it just cracks me up when silly fans talk about winners and losers as if players play 1-on-1 and the NFL is akin to boxing or tennis.

Brees and Rodgers have won, at the highest level.

So what? So has Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler, while HOF immortals like Tarkenton, Fouts, Marino, Kelly and Moon never did … it means NOTHING … I don't understand how anyone has a hard time grasping such a fact.

Can't really argue your point on Cousins.

Kirk is a good QB … he doesn't have elite arm talent but he's certainly no slouch and that Vikings TEAM is a legit SB contender even if they had a far worse QB … similar to the Jaguars.

As for my judgement on Winston, it's mostly based on the fact that this thread is meant to tell people how wonderful he is based on statistics.

This thread is just a fun hobby for me … I like debating sports and am not unrealistic or biased with my views on Jameis … I would never say he has more arm talent than Rodgers or better wheels than Darnold or better deep ball touch than Cousins or better ball security than Alex Smith, etc., etc., etc. The stats I post are legit, the arguments I make are legit … and I have fun with it.

As you said, it's too early to tell what type of a career he will have... but to inflate him based on the first 3 years of his career based on his stats is ludicrous

I didn't "inflate him" … the stats are what they are, they weren't doctored … the young man is an awesome QB that happens to play for a horrendous franchise … it is what it is.

The thread owner references his running game and defense as excuses... his stats would be WORSE if he had those things. His numbers are a product of the the team he plays for, not his talent.

Are you kidding me? The ONLY thing that would be worse is his "yards" … a good running game would drastically improve any QB's passer rating, QBR as well as ypa, ypc, etc … it can also boost one's TD passes number as drives aren't stalling. And, you know full well that a good defense absolutely drastically increases a QBs win percentage and can also give a massive boost to one's TD count as a QB gets more opportunities with the ball when he has defense that can stop the other team … come on man … you sound like a biased Jameis-hater and that's just silly.

Frankly, he's done nothing to warrant consideration as a Top 10 NFL quarterback... eye test, stats or whatever metric you are using.

Frankly, you're just wrong. The stats I referenced before say he was 10th last year, during a year in which he played much of the games with an injured throwing shoulder … and the eye test … again, just WATCH that MNF game against the Falcons and tell me how many QBs in the NFL are even capable of playing a game like that other than Rodgers, Stafford and a healthy Luck ...

As I said, when he does something worthwhile, I will happily eat my words. Love me some competitive banter! Football season is ALMOST HERE!!!!!

So, being #1 ALL-TIME in NFL HISTORY in both passing yards & TDs before the age of 24 isn't "worthwhile"? Being the ONLY QB in NFL HISTORY to start a career with back to back 4,000+ yard seasons isn't "worthwhile"? Having the 4th highest career "clutch" 4th quarter passer rating of any QB in the last 20 years isn't "worthwhile"? Having by far the highest yards per game in the entire NFL in the 11 full games he played last year isn't "worthwhile"? Statistically outplaying both Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson last year despite playing many games with an inured throwing shoulder isn't "worthwhile"? Come on man … if Baker Mayfield puts up the numbers and record Winston did, in Cleveland, that Jameis put up in his first 2 years before his injury, the kid will be considered a marvel … it's okay, Jameis is the new 2Pac, people either love him or hate him, I get it …

Regardless, THANK YOU ALL for the back and forth … debating sports is a real treat for me and I appreciate all your comments and hope ya'll feel the same!