Results 11 to 17 of 17
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05-10-2018, 12:22 AM #11
Five years from now and he will be elected to the HOF!
Looking for Aaron Judge cards, current Kansas City Royals and Kansas City Chiefs!
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05-10-2018, 01:24 AM #12
You might be right and I hope he can make it in on the 1st ballot as I believe TE's have always been disrespected by HOF voters and as the position is now more important than ever, it's about time a TE gets in on the first ballot. However, I think Tony Gonzalez will get in next year on the first ballot and that Witten will not get in on the first ballot, but it would be cool if he did!
Don't know how you can argue otherwise based on statistics.
The stats that mean the most to HOF voters have always seemed to be 1st Team All-Pro selections ... let's look at how many 1st Team All-Pro selections the 8 current HOF tight ends have, as well as how many soon to be HO'ers Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates, Gronk and Jason Witten have:
Mike Ditka: Five
John Mackey: Three
Charlie Sanders: Three
Jackie Smith: Four
Dave Casper: Five
Kellen Winslow: Three
Ozzie Newsome: One
Shannon Sharpe: Four
Tony Gonzalez: Six
Antonio Gates: Three
Rob Gronkowski: Four
Jason Witten: Two
So, out of the above 12 sure-fire HOF tight ends, Jason Witten has less 1st Team All-Pro awards than TEN of them! That's right, Witten only has more 1st Team All-Pros than one other HOF tight end, one.
You're telling me that Jason Witten with just two such awards and two measly playoff wins is going to be a 1st ballot HOF'er while Shannon Sharpe with four such awards, 13 playoff victories and 3 SB rings had to wait till his fourth ballot? In the words of Stephen A. Smith, that would be BLASPHEMOUS!
He is the 4th all time leader in NFL history in receptions. Antonio Gates will never get to that mark as he is over 200 catches behind. He is the Cowboys all time leader in receptions and receiving touchdowns! Pretty sure some guys behind him on that list got in the Hall the first time around.
Nope, no TE in the history of football has ever got in on the 1st ballot and that is the primary reason I don't think Witten will get in on the 1st ballot. I believe Tony Gonzalez, with his incredible SIX 1st Team All-Pro awards will get in on the 1st ballot and they may cause the flood gates to open for TE's like Witten to start getting in on the 1st ballot ... but if the past is a predictor of the future, there is no way Witten gets in on the 1st ballot.
Gronk is a better catching tight end, but Witten is definitely the best all around tight end to play the game.
You really think Witten is the best all-around tight end ever? I don't, not even close. In fact, former NFL personnel guru Gil Brandt, a man many feel should be in the HOF himself, ranks Witten as the 14th best tight end ever:
Gonzo is the best catcher ever, but lacked quit a bit in the blocking department. Gonzalez even came out and said Witten is "THE GREATEST" blocking/catching tight end to EVER play the game and is a 1st ballot HOFer.
That's a great compliment, but I don't think it will sway the HOF voters. Tons of former players campaigned for Terrell Owens, to no avail.
If you don't think he is the greatest all around, you don't watch the Boys. There are better catching TEs (Gonzo, Gronk). But, everyone is entitled to their opinion which is why it is fun to discuss these topics.
I watch the Cowboys a lot ... I collected Troy Aikman in the past and made sure to see them when they came to Detroit back when the triplets were killing the league ... I loved the Boys when the triplets were there, loved them! I even liked Romo and defended him on-line a lot ... to me, he is an infinitely better QB than Eli Manning and deserves to be in the HOF before Manning, yet I'm also logical enough to know that Romo will probably never get into Canton without buying a ticket while Eli will likely get in on his 1st ballot.
The stats don't lie!!! Any of those guys have more receptions in a single season or game than Witten?
Again, I believe HOF voters consider 1st Team All-Pros the most important "stat", and Witten's one such honor pales in comparison to many other tight ends throughout history.
You always come out with great arguments based off of statistics,
Thank you for the compliment; I pride myself on being sensible and logical rather than emotional.
but not sure how you can argue he is not a first ballot guy.
Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone can argue he is a 1st ballot guy, as to do so, is to ignore history and the fact that not one single tight end in the history of the game has ever been elected into the HOF on their 1st ballot ... I simply think Witten continues that streak, and I think such is the "safe bet". It's never a safe bet to bet on someone being the "first"; it's always a safer bet to bet on history and Witten is going to have to buck history to become the "first" ever TE elected into the HOF on his 1st ballot.
So, don't be shocked when it happens.
I'd be thrilled for Jason if he got in on his 1st ballot, but it would surprise me, unless Gonzo's getting in on the first ballot next year opens the flood gates ... and I hope it can as TE's have been incredibly under-valued historically.
Do you ever say positive stuff about the Cowboys? lol.
I believe the Jimmy Johnson Cowbys were the best team ever ... ever! I'd take them over Montana's 49'ers, Bradshaw's Steelers, etc. Those teams were just astounding. Is that enough praise for you?
Cowboys had a bad draft?
They had a bad free agency + draft ... their draft was fine but they were horrible in free agency, so I believe they had a bad free agency + draft.
Is it that you don't believe the Raiders or Boys are going to make the playoffs or you just don't want them to?
It's the former. I would never make a prediction that I don't actually believe in, as I like to be correct on all my predictions. Basically EVERYONE thought I was insane for saying the Boys and Raiders wouldn't make the playoffs last year ... but I was right. I believe the same this year. Also, I am NOT a Cowboys or Raiders hater ... I actually like both teams and the Raiders may even be my third favorite team in the entire AFC as I love Derek Carr and Jon Gruden ... I've got them behind only the Jets (I love Darnold that much) and Steelers (I'm a big Roethlisberger, Bell, Brown and Shazier fan).
The Raiders are going for sure. They are legit contenders this year simply because of the addition of Gruden.
It'd be great if you're right but I don't see it. I believe their O-Line has gotten worse, their special teams have gotten drastically worse with the loss Patterson, King and Janikowski, their run game will be weak yet again being led by two old guys in Lynch and Martin, and their pass defense will once again be pretty bad ... I also believe they are markedly worse than both the Chargers and Chiefs and that the Broncos with Keenum and Bradley Chubb especially could easily finish with a better record this year. Honestly, I believe the Raiders have a better shot at finish the season in last place in their division than they do at making the playoffs.Last edited by Jameis1of1; 05-10-2018 at 01:26 AM.
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05-12-2018, 03:58 PM #13
Hmmm, I take it that my above reply shut down this debate, eh?
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05-12-2018, 04:30 PM #14
Nope. Just been at work over the past couple of days and don't have access to this stuff. You are right about the HOF not being kind to TEs.
Gonzo will get in first ballot! Witten will get in first ballot and it won't be because the flood gates were opened with Gonzo.
You mention 1st Team All-Pro selections. What about Pro Bowl selections? Witten is second on that list with 10 only behind Gonzo.
The only number that matters is 1,152 receptions. 4th all-time among TEs and WRs. A mark that nobody else will come close to or hit that you mentioned on your list (except obviously Gonzo). That number is where the talk stops. People can be selected for this or that, but when you talk about 4th all-time receptions in NFL history. That guy is getting in first ballot. PERIOD!!
Don't got time to get into the other stuff now as I am tired. Great points by the way on the Raiders and Boys.
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05-12-2018, 06:30 PM #15
I agree Gonzo will get in on the 1st ballot, but he should as he is a SIX time 1st team All-Pro ... Witten is just a two time 1st team All-Pro, so he certainly doesn't "deserve" to get in on the 1st ballot if Shannon Sharpe had to wait till the 4th ballot.
Witten will get in first ballot and it won't be because the flood gates were opened with Gonzo.
I'm not sure how can you say this ... Shannon Sharpe's resume blows Witten's out of the water and Sharpe didn't get in until his 4th ballot ...
You mention 1st Team All-Pro selections. What about Pro Bowl selections? Witten is second on that list with 10 only behind Gonzo.
Pro Bowls are meaningless in comparison to 1st Team All-Pro selections as they are little more than a popularity contest. Michael Vick has as many Pro Bowl selections as Eli Manning, yet we both know Vick has a 0.0% shot at getting elected to the HOF while Eli will probably be a 1st ballot HOF'er ... heck, even Donovan McNabb has more Pro Bowl selections than HOF legend Joe Namath.
The only number that matters is 1,152 receptions. 4th all-time among TEs and WRs. A mark that nobody else will come close to or hit that you mentioned on your list (except obviously Gonzo). That number is where the talk stops. People can be selected for this or that, but when you talk about 4th all-time receptions in NFL history. That guy is getting in first ballot. PERIOD!!
I'm not sure how you can say this either when Art Monk retired #2 All-Time in NFL history in receptions ... and played WR instead of TE which is a more valued position by HOF voters ... and yet, didn't get into the HOF until 13 years later!
Don't got time to get into the other stuff now as I am tired. Great points by the way on the Raiders and Boys.
No worries and thanks for the kind words ... I enjoy conversing with you on this site ... good stuff as always!
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05-12-2018, 06:49 PM #16
I didn't say that Sharpe's stats blow. He is one of the greats receiving tight ends to ever play. So, not sure where you interpreted that from me. I did say "receiving tight ends". Witten is one of the best all around and also has more receptions than Sharpe (who was a great receiving TE). Witten did it all and only has 3 guys ahead of him who have more catches. "3, ever" You can say he isn't great, but you have to be pretty good to be 4th all time in receptions among TEs and WRs. That is why he gets in first ballot. Not because of Pro Bowls or All Pro selections.
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05-12-2018, 08:36 PM #17
I was simply saying that when Sharpe has twice as many All-Pro selections along with a 3 rings to Witten's zero, yet had to wait till his 4th ballot to be elected, it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would think Witten "deserves" to be a 1st ballot HOF'er.
And, I understand your point of view that Witten being #4 on the catch list will assure him of being a 1st ballot HOF'er, but the fact is that history proves otherwise as Art Monk retired #2 all-time in catches and didn't get into the Hall of Fame for 13 years!
The above said, how can you think Witten deserves to be a 1st ballot HOF'er when someone with twice as many 1st Team All-Pros and a playoff resume that blows Witten's out of the water had to wait till his 4th ballot AND a guy who retired with "stats" that blow Witten's out of the water (#2 all-time rather than #4 all-time) had to wait till his NINTH ballot to get into the Hall of Fame?
Regardless, I think my answers to all of your questions at least prove that I was never just "hating on Witten" or that I was allowing some imagined anti-Cowboys viewpoint to cloud my judgment but rather than I was basing my statements on history and statistical data. I love Witten and hope he can get in on his 1st ballot, but if history is any indicator, he won't get into the Hall of Fame on his first ballot.
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