Negative Parallel?!?!

[RGM81]

I saw this in the Sports Card Nonsense FB group. On first thought having a parallel -2/0 is stupid. But on second thought, why hasn’t Upper Deck done something like this in hockey?

Topps has in Chrome the Sub-Zero Frozenfractor. Five copies.

[RGM81]

The only question I guess is where do they include it? Platinum or Ice? I think either would be the most obvious choice out of all the available options.

[mikecole141]

Topps gets bought by Fanatics and they start risking the world by dividing by zero. Maniacs I tell ya.

[Savard18]

Perhaps it would make sense with printing plates, but I don't know about cards..

I mean I guess Upper Deck could make different colored composite acetate cards, and when you stack them it builds the color photograph? so if you can somehow manage to collect the 5 or so required to build the color picture it would be the equivalent of a 1/1 card?

Either way, the idea of a negative numbered card is way too trendy er "gimmicky" for me - not only that - but it would make a hobby purists head explode, lol.... I will say tho my idea is pretty cool but there would be no need to give the card a negative serial number - they could just be /5 or whatever it would take to build the color photo or whatever the card is supposed to look like if you collect all /5 cards.

[mooneyes]

Give it time as they must be running out of ideas soon. Allure has a ssp parallel with a blue china pattern on it, like you would see on your Granny's fine china. It's kind of cool actually.

[30ranfordfan]

The answer is "Young Guns" because there isn't enough versions yet :)

[OscarsCards]

hUH? I didn't get it? Why -2? why -2/0? What does that mean?

[Savard18]

The answer is "Young Guns" because there isn't enough versions yet :)

Hey, I really like what Upper Deck has done with the Young Guns over the last few years. I'm a fan of retro cards in general, hence I'm a big fan of the "retro" YG's, - unfortunately I believe they're criminally undervalued (all ultra-modern cards are) and without question the retro Young Guns are significantly more "scarce" than their "base sp" counterparts.. Perhaps "significantly" is a bit too hyperbolic but I'm very confident they're more scarce. for sure.

They should start serial numbering YG's, and perhaps do something similar to what they do with Metal Universe and the PMG's - I mean Upper Deck already kinda does with the High Gloss /10, Exclusives /100, and of course you have the french, clear cuts, foil, canvas, and now black & white canvas..Why not just serial number and condense all of them to like /999 with High Gloss being #'d /10, Clear Cut's #'d /11-50, French #'d /51-150 etc... IDK, I think it would make YG's more interesting..

Not that it really matters, BECAUSE:

The number one issue with the hobby at the moment, hence with ultra-modern cards are the professional breakers flooding the market with otherwise decent hits - all so they can find the case-hits and the other extremely rare and highly desirable inserts, parallels, serial numbered and mem cards..... Which is really starting to piss me off because a few years ago, you could buy a hobby box and you would usually get the same value out of it for what you paid for the box - you may not get the players you wanted or inserts you were hoping for but you generally got your value back - NOT all the time of course - but most of the time. And then of course on occasion you'd get a "super box" that delivered big time.... But thanks to professional breakers those days are essentially over because the professional breakers are are flooding the market with far too much supply that outweighs demand TEN-FOLD, and to make matters worse, they prices their box hits super cheep just to flip them really quick to recoup some of the money they invested into their case-breaks - then of course they make their big money which justifies their breaks by selling the case-hits and whatever else they pull that's super high-end....And where does that leave the "typical" or "average" collector that just paid $130 for a hobby box, but maybe if they were lucky pulled $70 bucks of cards out of the box because the market is saturated with inserts, parallels, rookies etc that would have sold for good money 3-4 years ago before the "Covid hobby boom"...

I mean I've heard it numerous times: "why aren't Young Guns as valuable as they used o be" - and since economics is my thing - the answer is very simple - the supply outweighs the demand.... And look, it's not because YG's are particularly "rare" cards - it's just that before professional breakers came around all of these "hits" were coming to market progressively - er a lot slower than they are today so the demand outweighed the supply because the typical er average collectors couldn't collectively pull them quick enough and get them to market to satisfy the demand, but now with breakers - they're outpacing the demand for these cards, and even worse selling them for 50% - if not 25% of what their true market value should be.... And yes, YG's and all parallels and inserts in these products are indeed finite, so in theory it shouldn't matter - but weather they're finite or not isn't the issue, the issue is that these cards are coming to market too quickly... Look, if there are 10,000 of a particular card produced, and 20 are pulled and come to market a week and there are 100 collectors at any given moment that really want that card - well there's only ONE CARD for every 5 collectors that want one. Now lets say the print run is exactly the same - 10,000 cards, but instead of only 20 of these desirable cards coming to market each week - there are 80 cards coming to market - well instead of 1 card for every 5 collectors that want one, now it's almost 1 for 1 -- meaning the competition is gone. Instead of 5 collectors bidding on a card, hence making that card valuable, well now with 80 of the same card on the market, so basically any collector that wants one can get one because they're abundant at that moment - and they will continue to be until those 10,0000 cards are pulled, but unfortunately by the time that happens, most likely 3-4 years down the road the hype surrounding the card will probably be gone, and nobody will want it...

Sorry,

I apologize for my supply and demand vs. professional breaker rant. But it's just something I think about sometimes when reading about ultra-modern cards like YG's and other inserts, parallels etc. and it ticks me off.. And don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against breakers or anything - I just think they're too dumb or are have too much fun breaking cards to understand what they're doing to the hobby by flooding the market with "box hits" via their massive case breaks.... They're significantly depressing he values of ultra-modern cards..

And look, I get it- the hobby isn't ONLY about value, it's about collecting cards, players, teams and sets you enjoy - but at the end of the day a card is an asset that holds value, and what gives that card value outside of the name on the front is supply, demand and scarcity - tho there are other factors that play a role as well that generally wouldn't apply to ultra-modern cards...

So with that said - the breakers aren't going away so these card companies are going to need to come up with creative solutions to combat the market being saturated...

Some collectors think I'm crazy but I think almost EVERY card should be serial numbered, and Upper Deck should increase the amount of variations they produce. I think every card should have a variation of some sort - be it a photo or design variation - not only that but if Upper Deck did that I think it would make the hobby way more interesting and way more challenging if you're a set collector - not only that - but it would revive the hobby of set collecting.. Look, I know there are still set collectors out there, but nothing close to the amount of set collectors that were hand collecting sets in the 80's & 90's... I mean collecting "base sets" just isn't fun anymore - so why not eliminate the "base card" as we know it today, period? instead of having one standard "base set" - why not have 5 minimum - none of which are "technically parallels" - same year, same brand, same series but "differences" among the 5 - with each set progressively more difficult to collect than the others... Heck, the possibilities are endless.

Heck, Upper Deck should issue a product and call it "Upper Deck Buybacks" and issue an entire set or multiple sets of buybacks - where you get 5 cards per pack or whatever and all of the cards in the pack are buybacks from 1990-91 to 2021 and they will ALL be stamped as buybacks an serial numbered, some auto'd, some older ones modified with game used memorabilia .... Heck, I'm 43 so I collected Upper Deck cards ever since they came out in 1990-91..Man, I would really dig a product like that... Not only that but UD owns OPC, so they could probably do it with OPC as well... I mean imagine pulling a 90-91 Upper Deck buyback Jaromir Jagr rookie patch auto #'d /68 (or whatever, it could be /10)... I mean there are no Jagr RPA's, and I would presume something like that would be extremely desirable and highly collectible.

You know, Upper Deck really needs to hire me because they really lack innovation, conceptuality, and creativity... I think they manufacture cards because it's a product to sell and NOT make cards that would blow collectors away, or make cards that collectors would truly enjoy and love - cards that a collector can look at and say "WOW, this is a piece of art".. A card that's very aesthetically pleasing, rare, easily tradeable and extremely challenging to complete the set..

But of course cards are subjective as is the hobby in general. No doubt there will be plenty that would hate my ideas and others that love my ideas, but hey - that's why it's subjective, lol

[30ranfordfan]

I share my thoughts on a few of those points......

Hey, I really like what Upper Deck has done with the Young Guns over the last few years. I'm a fan of retro cards in general, hence I'm a big fan of the "retro" YG's, - unfortunately I believe they're criminally undervalued (all ultra-modern cards are) and without question the retro Young Guns are significantly more "scarce" than their "base sp" counterparts.. Perhaps "significantly" is a bit too hyperbolic but I'm very confident they're more scarce. for sure.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I like retro stuff, but I think UD has pumped out WAY too much of it. 08-09 OPC was done masterfully (entire set had a 79-80 OPC parallel). I really liked what they did with 2010-11 Upper Deck... there was a 90-91 parallel of the entire set, but then another 50 retro SP cards added (and other 2 retro SSPs).

I don't enjoy the last few years of retro parallels nearly as much (YG, FW, etc). I'd rather they do the whole set with a retro parallel, or none of it.

As for retro YGs: They have the same issue as Canvas. Hockey collectors, by in large, are still very focused on the whole "true rookie card" thing (i.e. the Young Gun is a Rookie Card, everything else is a rookie year parallel, and NOT a rookie card). That doesn't mean the rarer cards don't sell for more, but considering how many times rarer they are - they don't get the bump you'd think they would.

They should start serial numbering YG's, and perhaps do something similar to what they do with Metal Universe and the PMG's - I mean Upper Deck already kinda does with the High Gloss /10, Exclusives /100, and of course you have the french, clear cuts, foil, canvas, and now black & white canvas..Why not just serial number and condense all of them to like /999 with High Gloss being #'d /10, Clear Cut's #'d /11-50, French #'d /51-150 etc... IDK, I think it would make YG's more interesting..

They can not, and will not, ever serial number young guns (outside of a couple of parallels). They are getting ready to fire up the presses, and run off 50,000 Bedard YGs. If they serial numbered them, and told people how many copies there actually are - they'd lose a lot of value. The crazy jump in YG prices over the last few years is unsustainable, IMO. It makes no sense that YG.... printed by the 10s of thousands.... sell for significantly more than base RCs from other sets, with a serial numbered print run under 1,000.

Outside of the Exclusives & High Gloss, they're not going to serial number the others either. There are thousands of the French parallel out there. Clear Cuts aren't that limited either (by modern standards). The Acetate ones are pretty rare (or do I have them mixed up with Clear Cuts?). The retros, tons of them too.


Not that it really matters, BECAUSE:

The number one issue with the hobby at the moment, hence with ultra-modern cards are the professional breakers flooding the market with otherwise decent hits - all so they can find the case-hits and the other extremely rare and highly desirable inserts, parallels, serial numbered and mem cards..... Which is really starting to piss me off because a few years ago, you could buy a hobby box and you would usually get the same value out of it for what you paid for the box - you may not get the players you wanted or inserts you were hoping for but you generally got your value back - NOT all the time of course - but most of the time. And then of course on occasion you'd get a "super box" that delivered big time.... But thanks to professional breakers those days are essentially over because the professional breakers are are flooding the market with far too much supply that outweighs demand TEN-FOLD, and to make matters worse, they prices their box hits super cheep just to flip them really quick to recoup some of the money they invested into their case-breaks - then of course they make their big money which justifies their breaks by selling the case-hits and whatever else they pull that's super high-end....And where does that leave the "typical" or "average" collector that just paid $130 for a hobby box, but maybe if they were lucky pulled $70 bucks of cards out of the box because the market is saturated with inserts, parallels, rookies etc that would have sold for good money 3-4 years ago before the "Covid hobby boom"...

Couldn't disagree more. If I bought a hobby box of Upper Deck Series 1 back in 2015 - I'd be paying about $90 Canadian for it (much less than what today's will go for). There were two or three boxes in a case that would be worth $90+, and the rest you'd be lucky to get $50 for the cards. REALLY lucky. Non serial numbered inserts never sold for anything. Might get $2 for the stars, and 50 cents from a set collector for anything else. Canvas parallels? Same. Exclusives? Might get a couple of bucks for a common, $20 for a common High Gloss. Stars could get you a fair bit on the HG, but even the exclusives wasn't much. Numbered YG parallels always did well - but not THAT well, outside of the handful of top guys. UD Game Jerseys are lining the $2 binders at card shows, and nobody buys them. Pulled a case-hit autograph? (They used to fall one per case). $10 unless you get a star.

Hobby boxes have never been anything but gambling - there has never been a time when most boxes would yield even close to their values. Once in a while a product comes along that has amazing value.... but it's not any of the staple products. 2015? Pull a McDavid YG and you got great value on your box. There might have been a patch card, or SSP card in the case somewhere that's worth the cost of the box..... but if you got even $50 back on your $90, you'd be doing really well most days.

I mean I've heard it numerous times: "why aren't Young Guns as valuable as they used o be" - and since economics is my thing - the answer is very simple - the supply outweighs the demand.... And look, it's not because YG's are particularly "rare" cards - it's just that before professional breakers came around all of these "hits" were coming to market progressively - er a lot slower than they are today so the demand outweighed the supply because the typical er average collectors couldn't collectively pull them quick enough and get them to market to satisfy the demand, but now with breakers - they're outpacing the demand for these cards, and even worse selling them for 50% - if not 25% of what their true market value should be.... And yes, YG's and all parallels and inserts in these products are indeed finite, so in theory it shouldn't matter - but weather they're finite or not isn't the issue, the issue is that these cards are coming to market too quickly... Look, if there are 10,000 of a particular card produced, and 20 are pulled and come to market a week and there are 100 collectors at any given moment that really want that card - well there's only ONE CARD for every 5 collectors that want one. Now lets say the print run is exactly the same - 10,000 cards, but instead of only 20 of these desirable cards coming to market each week - there are 80 cards coming to market - well instead of 1 card for every 5 collectors that want one, now it's almost 1 for 1 -- meaning the competition is gone. Instead of 5 collectors bidding on a card, hence making that card valuable, well now with 80 of the same card on the market, so basically any collector that wants one can get one because they're abundant at that moment - and they will continue to be until those 10,0000 cards are pulled, but unfortunately by the time that happens, most likely 3-4 years down the road the hype surrounding the card will probably be gone, and nobody will want it...

Except Young Guns sells for FAR more than they did three years ago. They're not getting quite the premium they did at the height of the pandemic, because most of the "I'm home with nothing to do, and board" new collectors are gone.

It's not just a YG thing though. If in the latest version of SP Authentic (I'm picking a well known mid-level product) and you make a patch card of Artemi Panarin, and number it to 25 copies: I have a hard time believing you can find me 25 people who actually want to own that card..... and no chance you could find me 100 people, which would create some competition (and then higher prices). Like, want to buy it (for a reasonable price) and it will now become part of their collection. If you sell it cheap enough, you can find any number of buyers who would buy it, and then try and trade or resell it, but 25 people who actually want to own it? I don't believe that many people exist. Player collecting has become impossible (can't get them all) and for star players - it often means picking and choosing what you really like. Set collecting, outside of a few specific ones, is dead... and it has been for years. Most releases are not geared towards set collecting.

Sorry,

I apologize for my supply and demand vs. professional breaker rant. But it's just something I think about sometimes when reading about ultra-modern cards like YG's and other inserts, parallels etc. and it ticks me off.. And don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against breakers or anything - I just think they're too dumb or are have too much fun breaking cards to understand what they're doing to the hobby by flooding the market with "box hits" via their massive case breaks.... They're significantly depressing he values of ultra-modern cards..

And look, I get it- the hobby isn't ONLY about value, it's about collecting cards, players, teams and sets you enjoy - but at the end of the day a card is an asset that holds value, and what gives that card value outside of the name on the front is supply, demand and scarcity - tho there are other factors that play a role as well that generally wouldn't apply to ultra-modern cards...

So with that said - the breakers aren't going away so these card companies are going to need to come up with creative solutions to combat the market being saturated...

The pro breakers, as you call them, are trying to hit a home run - and they dump anything they don't want. COMC (filled with cards that came from ePack) is often a race to the bottom.

Some collectors think I'm crazy but I think almost EVERY card should be serial numbered, and Upper Deck should increase the amount of variations they produce. I think every card should have a variation of some sort - be it a photo or design variation - not only that but if Upper Deck did that I think it would make the hobby way more interesting and way more challenging if you're a set collector - not only that - but it would revive the hobby of set collecting.. Look, I know there are still set collectors out there, but nothing close to the amount of set collectors that were hand collecting sets in the 80's & 90's... I mean collecting "base sets" just isn't fun anymore - so why not eliminate the "base card" as we know it today, period? instead of having one standard "base set" - why not have 5 minimum - none of which are "technically parallels" - same year, same brand, same series but "differences" among the 5 - with each set progressively more difficult to collect than the others... Heck, the possibilities are endless.

There's plenty of sets like that (where there is no base, or the base is so limited that it's also a hit). It's just not UD Series 1/2/3, OPC, Victory, etc. They make plenty of 3-6 cards per box type sets.

Heck, Upper Deck should issue a product and call it "Upper Deck Buybacks" and issue an entire set or multiple sets of buybacks - where you get 5 cards per pack or whatever and all of the cards in the pack are buybacks from 1990-91 to 2021 and they will ALL be stamped as buybacks an serial numbered, some auto'd, some older ones modified with game used memorabilia .... Heck, I'm 43 so I collected Upper Deck cards ever since they came out in 1990-91..Man, I would really dig a product like that... Not only that but UD owns OPC, so they could probably do it with OPC as well... I mean imagine pulling a 90-91 Upper Deck buyback Jaromir Jagr rookie patch auto #'d /68 (or whatever, it could be /10)... I mean there are no Jagr RPA's, and I would presume something like that would be extremely desirable and highly collectible.

They've litterly done that already. It was called Upper Deck Buybacks. They did make some new "base" cards to put into the packs, the hits were old UD cards that were re-packed for that release (and many of them were signed). They just had 1/1 30th anniversary parallels of the entire lineage of UD Series 1&2 inserted into UD1&2 packs.

They've never cut up a Jagr RC, and inserted a patch after the fact - but they've certainly had him sign copies of that card.

You're right though - people love this kind of stuff.

You know, Upper Deck really needs to hire me because they really lack innovation, conceptuality, and creativity... I think they manufacture cards because it's a product to sell and NOT make cards that would blow collectors away, or make cards that collectors would truly enjoy and love - cards that a collector can look at and say "WOW, this is a piece of art".. A card that's very aesthetically pleasing, rare, easily tradeable and extremely challenging to complete the set..

But of course cards are subjective as is the hobby in general. No doubt there will be plenty that would hate my ideas and others that love my ideas, but hey - that's why it's subjective, lol

They make what will sell, yes. They're really good at doing that. Once in a while they do something really good...... SP Legends, IMO, is one of their best releases in years. They loaded the checklist too well though, I don't think a second volume would work.

My guess is they'll be bought out by Fanatics in the next year or two.,

[Seahawks Fan]

It would be cool to add these to Allure for the Rainbow/Color Flow...Call them Reverse Rainbows and make them super short printed having them Go backwards from the Base Red Oranges.... Have a Brown/Red, Brown/Grey, Grey/Black, Black/Negative...Something around those lines.