Wanted some thoughts on some in person auto's stamped by Smokey Sportscards

[doniceage]

Back in the day this outlet had one of the biggest shops in Vegas and sold all kind of stufff. Advertised in SCD and got caught selling fake memorabilia of the high end stuff. Believe he had a stamping machine and did all kind of cards which I enjoyed as sometimes you can find them relatively cheap when you can find them (Of course not the big guys). Here is a example





Here is a licensed card on ebay and the auto's look similar but their are some differences but we al know auto change over time. Just getting input from the boards.



Just wondering your thoughts on the auto's being legit. Looking at selling them someday but wanted to get thoughts. It not like I plan on getting a bunch of commons certified for resale purpose when I am not going to get a lot of dollars out of them from the start. It amazing how so many folks have gotten into the hobby and ruined it by being shady.

DON

p.s. Thanks for any input or thoughts on this topic as I was just digging thru boxes and found this card along with a few other low end players. Just looked some more and found a ultimate ttm on ebay. The J has a big time difference then the top two especially we know the one is licensed from Topps.

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[Savard18]

I think I saw a TV program on this scheme.

Didn't the FBI get involved and it was a huge deal?.. They had some kind of "master" counterfeiter working for them - and they were faking all kinds of rare auto's like Babe Ruth, and other extremely rare items and auto's?

Of course I could be getting this confused with a different sports memorabilia forgery ring.

But to stay on topic, who would fake a John Ferguson auto tho?

That's my logic when it comes to most IP auto's. I mean, you'd figure if someone was going to take the risk to counterfeit/fake anything - they would counterfeit bigger players that were in high demand?

Also, you'd have to presume that even if this place/shop did get caught selling fake auto's - that doesn't necessarily mean that everything they were selling was fake..

Either way, I would assume with 99% confidence that John Ferguson auto is 100% authentic... Both of those cards/examples are legitimate pack-pulled auto's.. I actually have a handful of autos from each set myself - they're not very expensive either... Actually, in my opinion those Stanley Cup Heroes die-cut's are really underrated and under-appreciated cards... I'm actually working on the refractor set at the moment as a side project.

Either way, I'm sure the auto's you have are authentic. Like I pointed out - neither of those are IP auto's anyway.

[doniceage]

You’re right as I mentioned he was involved in a lot of the forging the bigger names. I think there was a book as well but I never read the book based on the FBI bringing him down. Think I read that somewhere but not exact on all the details. Do you remember what the tv program was called?

Thanks for chiming in as I could

I think I saw a TV program on this scheme.

Didn't the FBI get involved and it was a huge deal?.. They had some kind of "master" counterfeiter working for them - and they were faking all kinds of rare auto's like Babe Ruth, and other extremely rare items and auto's?

Of course I could be getting this confused with a different sports memorabilia forgery ring.

But to stay on topic, who would fake a John Ferguson auto tho?

That's my logic when it comes to most IP auto's. I mean, you'd figure if someone was going to take the risk to counterfeit/fake anything - they would counterfeit bigger players that were in high demand?

Also, you'd have to presume that even if this place/shop did get caught selling fake auto's - that doesn't necessarily mean that everything they were selling was fake..

Either way, I would assume with 99% confidence that John Ferguson auto is 100% authentic... Both of those cards/examples are legitimate pack-pulled auto's.. I actually have a handful of autos from each set myself - they're not very expensive either... Actually, in my opinion those Stanley Cup Heroes die-cut's are really underrated and under-appreciated cards... I'm actually working on the refractor set at the moment as a side project.

Either way, I'm sure the auto's you have are authentic. Like I pointed out - neither of those are IP auto's anyway.

[30ranfordfan]

I'm just going off memory here Don..... I can't back up what I'm going to say :)

I seem to remember that the Ultimate Autos (like that Ferguson) were good from Smokey's. They did get caught with forgeries, but those ones were done at a time when they were still very much legit.

I haven't seen anyone talk about that set in a long time though, I may not be remembering right.

[doniceage]

I'm just going off memory here Don..... I can't back up what I'm going to say :)

I seem to remember that the Ultimate Autos (like that Ferguson) were good from Smokey's. They did get caught with forgeries, but those ones were done at a time when they were still very much legit.

I haven't seen anyone talk about that set in a long time though, I may not be remembering right.

I was just digging thru some stuff and had picked up a quite a few of the lower end things like I usually do as they make great sellers for folks who do not wish to go after the high dollar cards of these athletes but just want to add one in their collection. Last thing I wanted to do was offer some of these up and be called out as selling forgeries so trying to remember the exact nature of Smokey's as it has been so LONG. Thanks for sharing Sean.

DON

[RGM81]

I think I saw a TV program on this scheme.

Didn't the FBI get involved and it was a huge deal?.. They had some kind of "master" counterfeiter working for them - and they were faking all kinds of rare auto's like Babe Ruth, and other extremely rare items and auto's?

Of course I could be getting this confused with a different sports memorabilia forgery ring.

But to stay on topic, who would fake a John Ferguson auto tho?

That's my logic when it comes to most IP auto's. I mean, you'd figure if someone was going to take the risk to counterfeit/fake anything - they would counterfeit bigger players that were in high demand?

Also, you'd have to presume that even if this place/shop did get caught selling fake auto's - that doesn't necessarily mean that everything they were selling was fake..

Either way, I would assume with 99% confidence that John Ferguson auto is 100% authentic... Both of those cards/examples are legitimate pack-pulled auto's.. I actually have a handful of autos from each set myself - they're not very expensive either... Actually, in my opinion those Stanley Cup Heroes die-cut's are really underrated and under-appreciated cards... I'm actually working on the refractor set at the moment as a side project.

Either way, I'm sure the auto's you have are authentic. Like I pointed out - neither of those are IP auto's anyway.

The bolded part of the equation is exactly how some of these guys get ahead. Yeah it may not be a massive revenue generator, but if a shady dealer can supplement his income by selling faked autos of low-to-mid tier guys it helps them pay for the autograph sessions they do with the mid-to-high tier guys to give them the veneer of legitimacy.

There was a local seller here in Kelowna -- West Coast Authentic -- and this was his exact MO. After years and years, the RCMP finally had enough and shut him down.

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelown...-auctioned-off

He says this is one of the biggest sales, as far as the number of items up for grabs, that the auction house has even dealt with.
“I think that we have around 3,160 lots, or something like that. Which is the biggest number that we’ve ever had in a sale for us. But there’s probably 10,000 items because a lot of the lots have multiple items,” adds Woodman.
He says while Dodds can’t guarantee the authenticity of the items, some have fairly good provenance. “We have all the photographs of the actual, whether it was a player or a fighter or whoever, actually signing photos at West Coast Authentics. So, I think that we’re kind of (going) on the basis that probably most of this stuff is authentic.”
One of the most popular items has been a life-sized deadpool figurine. Someonehas even contacted the auction house to ask if the figurine can be shipped to Toronto.
“There’s a lot of cool stuff,” says Woodman. “[A] Mike Tyson signed boxing glove. There’s [a] Bobby Hull framed jersey, signed framed jersey. He just died, so that might be a big one.”
While the memorabilia is on display at Dodds, the auction is happening online. Bidding will start closing, one lot at a time, at 8 a.m. on Saturday, February 25.
Everything is being auctioned ‘as is’ and there are no returns or refunds possible.

I took a look through some of the listings at the time. Some of the items I would charitably describe as "either the worst signature that [Player] has ever signed, or it's fake." These would be like Nick Suzuki or Cole Caufield autographs. Obviously, very popular current players for the Habs....but much like the Ferguson, who would go out of their way to forge these when you can acquire them reputably from UD or Fanatics to resell? At the same token, I know that the WCA guy had a couple signings with the likes of Patrick Roy and Mike Modano over the years, so those listings got some attention and sold pretty well because if you know, you know.

That's what these guys do....they have some legit items that gives them that credibility, but you (the buyer) really have to know what you're looking at and know your autographs because otherwise it's easy to get taken by the stuff that isn't legit.