Canada's "Free" healthcare

[mikesilvia]

Call me naive, but I doubt their government is putting up false statistics. Why would they do that? I highly doubt they're in fear of losing citizens. To garner the respect of Americans? I don't think they care that much.

They are likely 100% accurate. I took a statistics class as I was a business major in college. If a statistician or pollster has a specific outcome they are looking for they can make it crap smell like roses. For instance, you can call ONLY people that received health care in a timely manner and ask if they are happy with the health care they received. You can avoid calling people that got put on a waiting list. You have the list in front of you!

I'm not so much a supporter of universal health care as I am a supporter of some sort of reform to the monopolized prescription drug industry, which can set its own prices how it likes. That bothers me.

How is that different than any other commodity like oil? Cars? As long as there is competition then the price will be set at fair market value. What people fail to realize that the #1 cost for most drug companies is the research and development that they do. It is easy to say, "it cost these companies 10 cents to produce this pill and they charge $25. They are ripping me off!" But what people fail to realize if you factor in the billions of dollars these conpanies spend researching a drug and the loss money of 90% of drugs never making to market, it may cost $22 to produce that $25 pill.

If you're worried about communism/socialism, perhaps we should get rid of police, firemen, USPS, libraries, welfare, public education and social security while we're at it, since all of those institutions have socialist elements.

You do realize that police, fireman and schools are funded by tax payers, right? How is that communism/socialism? People pay tax on their house and that funds the fireman, policeman, etc. Communism is when the government controls everything. The more we take out of the hands of private companies and turn over to the government, the close we come to communism.

I am in favor of getting rid of welfare, privatizing social security and allow people to go to private schools. :)

[mikesilvia]

not to get involved in the debate over healthcare, but i doubt an email you got about canada's healthcare would be more reliable than the statistics from canada. considering half the stuff that people forward in emails I've learned better than to just trust them as being true without double checking stuff

Again, I never stated my e-mail was more accurate than the government statistics. I stated this up front before I posted it. By posting this and asking Canadian citizens I am double checking stuff. There is no way I can actually know 100% if this is true unless I become a Canadian citizens and go through their health care system. The next best way is to research and ask Canadian citizens.

So far I keep getting American citizens that tell me how it is. :)

[mikesilvia]

Personally, I have no idea what would work in this country (or any other developed nation for that matter) to solve our health-care issues. Bottom line I do think it's unacceptable that so many Americans cannot get proper care. As an American I find that shameful - regardless of the circumstances that got those certain people (that are uninsured) in that situation in the first place.

I agree to a point. I do feel that every child in America should have health care. It is not their fault that they are in a circumstance where their parents can't afford health care.

I do NOT believe every 18 year old and older should be given free health care. I hear a lot of people that state they can't afford health care and in many cases that is true. BUT I also see people that state they can't afford health care spending $500 a month eating out, $100+ on cell phone bills, $500 a month new car payment and other items. The problems with many Americans is they don't place health care as a priority in life. If you can afford to eat out 3-5 times a week and pay on a new sports car, then you can sure afford health care.

[moceanwerker]

...If you can afford to eat out 3-5 times a week and pay on a new sports car, then you can sure afford health care...

excellent point - I'd have to agree with that 100%.

[JayJagFan]

"They are likely 100% accurate. I took a statistics class as I was a business major in college. If a statistician or pollster has a specific outcome they are looking for they can make it crap smell like roses. For instance, you can call ONLY people that received health care in a timely manner and ask if they are happy with the health care they received. You can avoid calling people that got put on a waiting list. You have the list in front of you!"

Once again, this is a government website, not some business mogul trying to fool people. I highly doubt they're using outliers or anything like that to manipulate statistics. Plus, if you read it, there are some statistics provided on that website that are detrimental to their cause, so if they were trying to fool anyone, I'm sure they would've omitted those.

"How is that different than any other commodity like oil? Cars?"

Because some people need their prescription drugs in order to survive.

"As long as there is competition then the price will be set at fair market value. What people fail to realize that the #1 cost for most drug companies is the research and development that they do. It is easy to say, "it cost these companies 10 cents to produce this pill and they charge $25. They are ripping me off!" But what people fail to realize if you factor in the billions of dollars these conpanies spend researching a drug and the loss money of 90% of drugs never making to market, it may cost $22 to produce that $25 pill."

I might agree with this except in SiCKO, there is a scene where a woman receives the EXACT same inhaler she pays $125 dollars for in the United States for a nickel in Cuba (where the government regulates pharmaceuticals). Explain that one to me.

"You do realize that police, fireman and schools are funded by tax payers, right? How is that communism/socialism?"

And Canadian health care is funded by their tax payers. So tell me, how is that communism/socialism? Because they pay more than we do? That doesn't make it communism or socialism. Because it's regulated by the government? So are the police and firefighters in the United States.

"I am in favor of getting rid of welfare, privatizing social security and allow people to go to private schools. :)"

I, too, am in favor of abolishing welfare (except in cases of disability/elderly). However, I don't know how political pundits can say that the US shouldn't adopt universal health care because it's "too socialist" when we have the welfare system that we do. I don't know about you, but in my community, well, lets just say we have a large amount of people from a certain "group" and the whole lot of them are on welfare (and not because they're disabled). What's more is, a lot of these people live in crappy houses in crappy communities, but have their nice DirecTV and sports car. It makes me physically ill. I'm sure things like that are why you want to get rid of welfare, so I'm sure we can agree on that, but I just think some pundits are hypocritical.

As for education, I have nothing against the option of going to a private school, but I think we both can agree that if public education was abolished, this country would be crippled.

[tnopud42]

"You do read what I write don't you? I said, "I have never lived in Canada, but we have a lot of Canadian members here that can let is know if this is true."

So where do I state that is is 100% true? I obviously stated up front that I got it in an e-mail and I don't live in Canada. I asked for our Canadian members to chime in.

Seeing that you live in Texas, you don't know if this is accurate or not, so making statements like, "there are many inaccuracies in that email," is inaccurate because you don't live there. Just a suggestion, but reading entire posts usually help the discussion."

Not once did I make a reference to you. Not once did I make claim that you stated it was 100% true. Please show me the exact quote where I made those claims. I don't have to live in Canada to recognize inaccuracies. The writer of that email made generalizations which do not apply to all of Canada or to all situations. Perhaps you should read what I write.

[OnePimpTiger]

Mike...I'm with ya 100%.

I do NOT believe every 18 year old and older should be given free health care. I hear a lot of people that state they can't afford health care and in many cases that is true. BUT I also see people that state they can't afford health care spending $500 a month eating out, $100+ on cell phone bills, $500 a month new car payment and other items. The problems with many Americans is they don't place health care as a priority in life. If you can afford to eat out 3-5 times a week and pay on a new sports car, then you can sure afford health care.

Amen - but the reason for this and many other problems is that people don't plan ahead any more and realize they can't have everything they want. I think one of the top 3 problems in the US today is people don't know how, or just plain don't, save money. People think they "have" to have a nice house, fancy car, cel phone, PS3, designer clothes, etc etc etc. If they had savings, when a medical problem arose, it would be AS crippling financially at least. Same thing with the sub-prime mortgage debacle. First off, people think they "deserve" more than they can afford and buy a big huge house that they can barely make the payments on (if you can't afford it, you don't deserve it)...then when they can't make the payments, they expect the government to bail them out. Same thing with Hurricane Katrina and any disaster-related rebuilding on the coast. If you're dumb enough to build a house where hurricanes, floods, etc come through and destroy everything on a regular basis, then that's your fault, not the governments. I'm sick and tired of seeing people with self-inflicted wounds saying it's the governments duty to save their hides...and I'm extremely sick and tired of the government actually listening to these idiots.

Call me naive, but I doubt their government is putting up false statistics.

Once again, this is a government website, not some business mogul trying to fool people. I highly doubt they're using outliers or anything like that to manipulate statistics. Plus, if you read it, there are some statistics provided on that website that are detrimental to their cause, so if they were trying to fool anyone, I'm sure they would've omitted those.

I'll just say you have WAY more faith in government honesty than I do...we won't bother counting the times the government has been caught in a lie.

I've seen Sicko and considered it thought-provoking

I might agree with this except in SiCKO, there is a scene where a woman receives the EXACT same inhaler she pays $125 dollars for in the United States for a nickel in Cuba

Mike you should know by now that anyone who listens to anything Michael Moore says is impossible to reason with. He is the most biased, prejudiced, and narrow-minded person that somehow gets to tell everyone what to think. I'd rather have Hillary as president for 2 terms than to have his propaganda on the big screen.

I think the whole issue is that we live in a world now where people think they deserve the best of everything and if they don't have it, they expect a hand out from the government to give it to them. People have forgotten that hardship is a part of life...and will always be a part of life. You can't fix everything and will never be able to. The older generation realizes this...most of them anyway. My parents are in a very good position right now precisely because they sacrificed so much when they were younger and I was a kid. We lived in a tiny house (that my father built himself), drove crappy cars (the first "new" car my family had wasn't until my mom was over 40), had cheap clothes (I thought Goody's was high class stuff), didn't have all the newest toys and gadgets...but we always had enough of everything we needed and my parents set a strong financial foundation that has allowed them to be much more successful and wealthy later down the line. People now expect to have that right out of college, without having to go through the necessary struggles to get there....Granted there are some that wouldn't have this option to begin with, but if most of the people would just live within their means and make sound financial decisions, a healthcare crisis would just be another bump in the road instead of the end of the line.

[JayJagFan]

"I'll just say you have WAY more faith in government honesty than I do...we won't bother counting the times the government has been caught in a lie."

Correction: we shouldn't bother counting the times OUR government has been caught in a lie.

"Mike you should know by now that anyone who listens to anything Michael Moore says is impossible to reason with. He is the most biased, prejudiced, and narrow-minded person that somehow gets to tell everyone what to think. I'd rather have Hillary as president for 2 terms than to have his propaganda on the big screen."

I find that people who dislike Michael Moore rarely, if ever, try to actually refute the things he says, and instead resort to calling him "biased" (as if any other person with an opinion in network television or in movies isn't biased). Why don't you actually address the situation I presented, instead of attacking? Plus, have you ever seen SiCKO? It's a bipartisan film; he has a whole section attacking Hilary Clinton and how she abandoned her health care plan, and he blames members of both parties for the failing health situation. Fahrenheit 9/11 may have been partisan, but I suspect you haven't seen SiCKO or else you might be singing a different tune.

"I think the whole issue is that we live in a world now where people think they deserve the best of everything and if they don't have it, they expect a hand out from the government to give it to them. People have forgotten that hardship is a part of life...and will always be a part of life. You can't fix everything and will never be able to. The older generation realizes this...most of them anyway. My parents are in a very good position right now precisely because they sacrificed so much when they were younger and I was a kid. We lived in a tiny house (that my father built himself), drove crappy cars (the first "new" car my family had wasn't until my mom was over 40), had cheap clothes (I thought Goody's was high class stuff), didn't have all the newest toys and gadgets...but we always had enough of everything we needed and my parents set a strong financial foundation that has allowed them to be much more successful and wealthy later down the line. People now expect to have that right out of college, without having to go through the necessary struggles to get there....Granted there are some that wouldn't have this option to begin with, but if most of the people would just live within their means and make sound financial decisions, a healthcare crisis would just be another bump in the road instead of the end of the line."

I agree with this.

[moceanwerker]

I've seen Sicko and considered it thought-provoking

I might agree with this except in SiCKO, there is a scene where a woman receives the EXACT same inhaler she pays $125 dollars for in the United States for a nickel in Cuba

Mike you should know by now that anyone who listens to anything Michael Moore says is impossible to reason with. He is the most biased, prejudiced, and narrow-minded person that somehow gets to tell everyone what to think. I'd rather have Hillary as president for 2 terms than to have his propaganda on the big screen.

Really? That's quite a narrow-minded generalization..no offense but I find myself a very easy person to reason with. I actually agree with pretty much everything you say, as well as what Mike(not Moore) is saying. I found this movie thought-provoking because of the topic, I wasn't meaning that I agree with everything Moore is saying/showing.

One thing that makes this country great is the ability of people to put propaganda such as this out there for people to make their own decisions.

Whether you hate the guy, or love his films, the bottom line is it IS thought-provoking. He makes the movie, people get enraged (at his agenda or at those he is depicting) and discussion ensues - we're here talking about it right now - hopefully with some positive change coming about as a result.

I watch his movies and then research the other side as well, but I watch almost all documentaries regardless of the agenda contained, just like I watch the news or read the paper. I'll watch O'Reilly, Moore or anyone else with an opinion with the guts to put it out there. You can't be completely informed without listening to all sides.

Again though, I still think we're on the same page for the most part.

Cheers!

[OnePimpTiger]

Correction: we shouldn't bother counting the times OUR government has been caught in a lie.

This is true, but it doesn't apply only to our government...are you telling me you've never heard of other governments lying. I was speaking of government as a general institution...not as Canadian or US government specifically. I have little faith in ANY government being very truthful. You say the government is not a business and they're not trying to fool anybody, but they are on both accounts. The government is a business...it takes in revenue, it has expenditures, it has products...perhaps it's not a traditional corporation, but it is a business. And why wouldn't they try to fool us? They people in government are in power and want to stay in power, so why wouldn't they candy coat things?

I find that people who dislike Michael Moore rarely, if ever, try to actually refute the things he says, and instead resort to calling him "biased" (as if any other person with an opinion in network television or in movies isn't biased). Why don't you actually address the situation I presented, instead of attacking?

I haven't seen Sicko...I make it a point not to watch his propaganda. After seeing Roger & Me and Bowling for Columbine, I choose not to subject myself to it. But his bias is quite obvious...Do you think before he made Sicko he thought to himself "Hmmm, I wonder what the current state of healthcare in America is." He doesn't try to make an objective documentary, he has the point he wants to make decided before he starts filming and presents information that supports that point. That's called persuasion...he has his opinion and is trying to persuade other people to share his beliefs. How is that not being biased? Everyone does it, but my problem with him is that my beliefs and his are so far apart and, more importantly, how he sensationalizes everything he does. He can't just present facts, he has to do so in a way that makes him look like a martyr and whoever his prey is at the time as the single most evil being on the face of the planet.