This is getting out of hand

[lil5up3rman]

Wow bro I grew up in a bad neighborhood, my parents didn't have money and where never home, yet some how I managed to join the military and get away from all that, so to say you don't have a choice is a cop out, I have been there lived that life and today I am a Disabled Veteran with no criminal record, it is the parents they should raise their children better but at the same time at some point they make their own choices, and I never said I hope anyone gets shot. Daniel.

[haybierman]

with no child left behind if you aren't where you are supposed to be they give up on you instead of trying to help so they can keep their statistics high

So gangs didn't exist before the Bush Administration?

I've had to stop my education to get a job to help the family

This isn't the first time you've mentioned this. I am interested to hear this raw deal you've been given.

Why don't you talk to the kids and ask they why they are in a gang and not in school?

School isn't the be-all-end-all. When you drop out of school you are putting yourself at a disadvantage so in order to try to counterbalance that disadvantage you get a straight job instead of hanging out smoking dope and spending your Katrina aid check on Air Jordans and bling instead of freaking relocating to above sea-level.

It sounds like you may have gotten dealt a bum hand in life but defending gang life is preposterous. I grew up around gangs... check #3 on this list - http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html - that's my hometown. I also work in law enforcement and deal with gang members on a daily basis. Trust me, they are all pieces of sh*t.

Not everyone is given the same chance at birth. Some people have to struggle through life to get where they want to be, but there is no such thing as not having a choice. Who is making them join gangs? Better yet, who is making them have unprotected sex and have children in their teens? Who made their parents have a litter of kids and as a result have to work 3 jobs? Nobody did. Their state in life is a direct result of their own actions. They could have chosen to not do any of that and their lives would probably be a whole hell of a lot better. No matter how tough the odds are you ALWAYS have a choice, but when you make that choice, don't b1tch if you don't like the outcome.

And if you want to get political (as I assume you do after reading pretty much every one of your posts), it was Lyndon Johnson who created the modern welfare state and told minority mothers that the more kids they had the more money they could get from the government. it was modern liberalism that killed accountability in schools and dumbed them down while at the same time making it impossible for teachers to be fired for unsatisfactory progress. You wear your colors on your sleeve too brightly my friend. Bush is not the cause for the modern state of affairs. Granted, he arguably didn't do a hell of a lot to fix it, but blaming Bush for the modern education system is kind of like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad cheeseburger.... neither one of them really have anything to do with it.

[Yanksfan396]

hanging out smoking dope and spending your Katrina aid check on Air Jordans and bling instead of freaking relocating to above sea-level.

A bit of a generalization here... be careful, my friend.

Their state in life is a direct result of their own actions.

Wait... I thought God predetermined everything... :)

it was modern liberalism that killed accountability in schools and dumbed them down while at the same time making it impossible for teachers to be fired for unsatisfactory progress

How is LBJ "modern?" Also, it wouldn't hurt to clarify exactly how liberals are responsible for a poor school system. Education enrollment has been rising steadily since the mid-90s (NCES). I know, I know, "This is due to a rise in population, of course!"

blaming Bush for the modern education system is kind of like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad cheeseburger.... neither one of them really have anything to do with it.

I may steal this quote some time... :D

[haybierman]

A bit of a generalization here... be careful, my friend.

Not really. I have a ton of co-workers who were down there helping with the relief effort, who brought back video, not to mention other video that has been made public. Have you seen the one where the news crew was in the Wal Mart as it was being looted?

Wait... I thought God predetermined everything... :)

You may be confusing me me with some other members with whom you've debated before. The God card does not work on me. I am atheist. tried and true.

it wouldn't hurt to clarify exactly how liberals are responsible for a poor school system. Education enrollment has been rising steadily since the mid-90s (NCES). I know, I know, "This is due to a rise in population, of course!"

I also have never made the rise in population argument so, again, you might want to make sure you've got the right guy before you start trying to throw y own arguments back at me.

To avoid having to write a book I will state some abridged facts to back up my arguments:

1. First, to provide a basis for my claims - An overwhelming number of teachers in America consider themselves "Democrat" or "Liberal"... last I read it was something like 80-85%. This also goes for the administration of most schools.

2. Liberal presence is obvious in schools where over-the-top measures are being taken such as tag being banned and grades substituted with "how the student feels about the class".

3. Traditional classes like Biology, Chemistry, and Mathematics are being pushed to the wayside for classes like the study of Tupac Shakur's lyrics (I think this was at UCLA), and "How to be Gay" This was at U of Michigan. In fact, (I wish I had the numbers in front of me) there has been a stark decline in majors that anybody can do anything with after they graduate, as well as a steep fall in the amount of classes that require prerequisites. This all falls into the same mold of making students feel good about what they are learning rather than teaching them anything worthwhile.

Addendum: Yes attendance numbers are up but I don't see how that helps your argument at all. Most state-run schools get their funding depending on the number of students admitted each year. ( I used to be on the Board of Trustees at my undergrad university). Because of this, admission standards are lowered, which is why pretty much anyone with a heartbeat can get into college anymore. What you might not be taking into account here is that freshman dropout rates have SKYROCKETED since this practice was put into place. So yes, while admission rates may be growing, the graduating student body isn't (or at least at the same rate).

I guess my point here is that I would argue the (OBVIOUS) decline in the quality of American education and its graduates does not lie in public school funding or teachers not paying enough attention. It is a direct result of lack of accountability to prepare students for the real world.

I think we may have hijacked this thread.

I may steal this quote some time... :D

Go for it.

[Yanksfan396]

Here's what confuses me about your argument:

First, you say that 80%+ of teachers are liberal. Sounds a bit high, but I'll buy into the fact that most teachers are.

Second, you poison the well (which is a logical fallacy) with the tag incident and the substitution of grades.

Finally, you site two courses from two colleges, one being a conservative college.

Yes, you can prove the amount of liberal teachers, but you can't prove that these liberal teachers are those who are deteriorating the value of education. This is a hasty generalization (another logical fallacy).



Alright, I'm done contributing the the hijacking of the thread. I haven't made any outlandish claims, so there isn't much to rebut.

[JayJagFan]

My family makes less than $20,000 a year (my mom works part time as a court officer, my father is unemployed, and we don't take welfare), yet somehow I have great grades and am taking AP classes because my family will not be able to pay for college. I have my own job and pay for all my food and clothing expenses, as well as the internet bill.

I could've easily chosen to live the "gang life" because I grew into an unfavorable economic situation. Instead, I chose the more courageous route (yes, education IS the more courageous route). No one's situation is so bad that they can't go to school and try their hardest. If someone lives in a family that demands that their teenage son or daughter make money for the family instead of go to school, then that's not a family in my opinion.

[haybierman]

I haven't made any outlandish claims, so there isn't much to rebut.

Uhhh right. You mean besides saying one of them is a "conservative" university. And BTW, it wasn't UCLA, it was UC Berkeley. Shocker.

And Jay, I agree 100%

[dallascisco]

I must have missed that memo....

According to Bill O'reilly there are no homeless people.. you must be mistaken

[Insane Irish]

haybierman-Couldn't agree with ya more!!

Dallascisco-Where abouts do you live, I live in MD and work in DC. NW area, so it's not so bad, but I've had to deal with a lot of the scumbag gang bangers.

[dallascisco]

Gtown......

haybierman-Couldn't agree with ya more!!

Dallascisco-Where abouts do you live, I live in MD and work in DC. NW area, so it's not so bad, but I've had to deal with a lot of the scumbag gang bangers.