This is fraud

[Chuck-17]

This seems to be the same as Obama's quote when he was in Fort Collins.

"If you’re voting for the other guy, you should just wait until Nov. 5,"

[Aikman_TheGreat]

Please quote someone in this thread who thinks the only people who do this are those of the right-wing. Otherwise, I'd say you're "that out of the loop."

I'm not out of the loop, I've figured out that the Anti-Dems and the Anti-Republicans are out for theirselves. At least 80% of them anyway.

"Change"? Change is what got us in this mess.

[maccards44]

I love how Obama supporters think "right-wing morons" are the only ones who pull this kind of stuff. Are you that out of the loop?

Politics in general are full of this, on both sides. You really cant win these days unless you do SOMETHING that isnt 100% moral. Such as lie or take money when you shouldnt.

Do you REALLY want to debate which party has been behind more of the sleazy dirty tricks we've seen in politics over the past 40 years?

Whether it's Tricky Dick Nixon spreading lies about his opponents in the 70's to the point where they drop of the race rather than have to put their families through the wringer... or orchestrating a break-in at the DNC headquarters and then covering it up.

OR Iran/Contra Scandal with Reagan in the 80's
OR Bush Stealing Florida in 2000
OR Bush Making up Evidence of WMD's to go to war with Iraq
OR pretty much any time Karl Rove has opened his mouth....

Democrats aren't saints by any stretch, I mean we all know what Clinton did...but when it comes to sheer volume and depth of a scandal, not to mention absolute underhandedness, nobody can TOUCH the far right in my view.

You are right that of course now democrats are wading in the slimepool of acorn & shady fundraising - they are tired of LOSING!

My point by posting here was that IMO right-wing forces are behind both this lousy flyer & vote-by-phone silliness.
I heard today on the radio that a group of telemarketers WALKED OFF THE JOB because they refused to cold call people and read the anti-obama script they were supposed to read. It was apparently so inflammatory they were willing to lose thier jobs over it...just another in a long line of dirty tricks.

[ensbergcollector]

Do you REALLY want to debate which party has been behind more of the sleazy dirty tricks we've seen in politics over the past 40 years?

Whether it's Tricky Dick Nixon spreading lies about his opponents in the 70's to the point where they drop of the race rather than have to put their families through the wringer... or orchestrating a break-in at the DNC headquarters and then covering it up.

OR Iran/Contra Scandal with Reagan in the 80's
OR Bush Stealing Florida in 2000
OR Bush Making up Evidence of WMD's to go to war with Iraq
OR pretty much any time Karl Rove has opened his mouth....

Democrats aren't saints by any stretch, I mean we all know what Clinton did...but when it comes to sheer volume and depth of a scandal, not to mention absolute underhandedness, nobody can TOUCH the far right in my view.

You are right that of course now democrats are wading in the slimepool of acorn & shady fundraising - they are tired of LOSING!

My point by posting here was that IMO right-wing forces are behind both this lousy flyer & vote-by-phone silliness.
I heard today on the radio that a group of telemarketers WALKED OFF THE JOB because they refused to cold call people and read the anti-obama script they were supposed to read. It was apparently so inflammatory they were willing to lose thier jobs over it...just another in a long line of dirty tricks.

couple of things. on another board I am on, 7 people were poled before the 2004 election and were either hung up on when they said they were voting for bush or the poler tried to convince them to vote for Kerry. In addition to those 7, I personally new 3 others. So, that apparently goes both ways.

as for florida in 2000. I have asked these questions at least a dozen times and I have never had a dem provide a response.

1. How exactly did Bush steal the election?
2. How many recounts would be fair?
3. If Gore had won on recount number 12, would Bush have then gotten another 12 counts to see if he won again?
4. (not really a question) Before the heavily republican panhandle of florida had finished voting, news stations were calling florida for Gore, thus causing numerous people to not go vote because they were told it was decided already.

[maccards44]

couple of things. on another board I am on, 7 people were poled before the 2004 election and were either hung up on when they said they were voting for bush or the poler tried to convince them to vote for Kerry. In addition to those 7, I personally new 3 others. So, that apparently goes both ways.

as for florida in 2000. I have asked these questions at least a dozen times and I have never had a dem provide a response.

1. How exactly did Bush steal the election?
2. How many recounts would be fair?
3. If Gore had won on recount number 12, would Bush have then gotten another 12 counts to see if he won again?
4. (not really a question) Before the heavily republican panhandle of florida had finished voting, news stations were calling florida for Gore, thus causing numerous people to not go vote because they were told it was decided already.

I'll speak in generalities first - of course it goes both ways but one party has gone above & beyond when it comes to dirty tricks. It's interesting that I listed several examples of how Republicans have been the first to get dirty and get the dirtiest but you pounced on one sentence and proceeded to come up with a 4 PART QUESTION and a personal anecdote to counter my one sentence fragment but if you want to dwell on Florida I can if you want.

Your story about pollsters hanging up on people is a reason not to trust polls, nothing more nothing less. Polls in 2004 said Kerry would win in a landslide, obviously they are what they are - just polls.

Now on to the sunshine state.....
1. How exactly did Bush steal the election?

Here's how, He won the state by 537 votes... A stunningly slim majority...there's no bias there - it's a number and that's a small number to win by.
But the confusing butterfly ballot in palm beach county led to tons of votes being tossed out. Do you remember when the palm beach post reviewed all the butterfly ballots to see exactly what happened? The review was in March, far too late to do anything but this is an excerpt of what thay found:

"The newspaper's review of the overvotes found 5,330 Palm Beach County residents invalidated their ballots by punching chads for Gore and Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan. The hole voters punched for Buchanan was located just above Gore's on the two-page ballot.

The ballots showed another 2,908 voters punched Gore and Socialist David McReynolds, whose hole appeared just below Gore's. Buchanan's and McReynolds' names appeared on the right page of the ballot, while Gore's was on the left.

The confusion hurt Bush, too: 1,631 people punched Bush and Buchanan, whose hole was below his on the ballot. But Gore was the bigger loser: the two Gore combinations, minus the Bush-Buchanan votes, totaled 6,607 lost votes for Gore, the Post found."

That's 6,600 votes that were tossed out because of a poorly-designed ballot!
More than enough to swing the state over to Gore, but it was months too late to do anything, he was already sitting President.

Then there is the outright fraud by Jeb Bush (yes his BROTHER) and his Florida campaign manager Republican Secretary of State Kathleen Harris they ILLEGALLY removed 57,700 voters from the rolls. They basically found any & every technicality to toss those votes out. Sometimes all it took was being black!

Oh and then Harris made sure to count all 2,490 overseas ballots that were cast, (mostly from soldiers, mostly for Bush) even though another review found that 680 of those were duplicate, or PEOPLE VOTING TWICE FOR BUSH.

The bottom line is that if you really need to win a state to be President it really pays to have your brother and his staff be the ones to decide which votes count and which don't.

It doesn't matter how many recounts they had, if you are throwing out votes for your opponent and counting votes for yourself twice, the outcome will always come up in your favor.

As for this: "Before the heavily republican panhandle of florida had finished voting, news stations were calling florida for Gore, thus causing numerous people to not go vote because they were told it was decided already."

So their excuse is that they didn't vote?
What kind of excuse is that?
I mean seriously.. "I WOULD have voted but the tv told me not to"
That doesn't prove anything.

[mintman2]

After the 2000 elections there were MANY recounts done by independent organizations and to the best of my recollection every single one of them still had Bush as the winner. They even counted them using the rules Bush wanted to and the rules Gore wanted. Some had Bush winning by a few more votes and some a few less but they ALL still concluded Bush was the winner.

We won't even touch the "Bush Making up Evidence of WMD's to go to war with Iraq" statement. EVERY intelligence agency in the entire world said Sadaam had them, including the be all and end all authority called the "United Nations".

[maccards44]

After the 2000 elections there were MANY recounts done by independent organizations and to the best of my recollection every single one of them still had Bush as the winner. They even counted them using the rules Bush wanted to and the rules Gore wanted. Some had Bush winning by a few more votes and some a few less but they ALL still concluded Bush was the winner.

That's what happens when you throw out votes for your opponent and count your own votes more than once - no matter how many times you recount them.

We won't even touch the "Bush Making up Evidence of WMD's to go to war with Iraq" statement. EVERY intelligence agency in the entire world said Sadaam had them, including the be all and end all authority called the "United Nations".

Whose "we"? Are you going to refer to yourself in the 3rd person now?
"Mintman feels that you are out of line."
Anyway how about the fact that "every intelligence agency" as you say, has now come out and revealed that they were pressured by the Bush administration to CREATE evidence of WMD's? Or did Rush never cover that tidbit?
Any other horrible republican behavior you want to defend?
Iran/Contra?
Nixon's Dirty Tricks?
Karl Rove spreading rumors about John McCain's "Black Baby" in 2000?

[mintman2]

Any other horrible republican behavior you want to defend?

Nope, I'm good.

On those two points we can agree to disagree.

You actually make some good points but there's no need to sprinkle in a personal dig at the mintman. (Yeah, I did that just for you )


.

[maccards44]

matt_curren is sorry for the personal dig on the mintman.

(I don't know how he leans politically but somehow Rickey Henderson is to blame for all this!)

[Aikman_TheGreat]

This actually makes my point.

We argue like this on a message board, a "pointless" message board for fun.

But yet, instead of working together, we fight. We are NOT united. So I'm scared.

My lawyer is a democrat, straight up. And I work with him, watch football with him, and will listen to anything he says.

So why cant we ALL be that way? Listen to the opposite party, and work with them, to make this country GREAT again.

Its up to us.