Religion Questions Take II

[ensbergcollector]

1. Forgive my superhuman ability to see the worst in people, but it seems to me that if you REALLY believed that somebody was on track to go to a horrible place where they'd be tortured forever when they die, you would be clinging frantically to the feet of every passing stranger you saw, hysterically sobbing and begging them to accept Jesus. That is, of course, if you cared about anyone else. Do you not care or do you not really believe?

2. That delightful sentiment having been said, here's a serious question for you. For someone like you who's been in the church forever, you probably have no concept of what it's like to be an outsider, and are probably wondering why in the world anyone wouldn't ever want to be part of your church. Well, I'm going to tell you how I see it.

3. Imagine you're standing in the center of an enormous room, with anywhere between a quarter and a half a million people all staring right at you, and each of them is shouting at you to join their religion. All of them claim to be the sole possessors of absolute truth and absolute morality, and that all the others are deceivers and liars. Almost all of them claim that only they can tell you how to get to their equivalent of heaven, and everyone who doesn't agree with them will go to their equivalent of ****. Some of them even say that you not only have to pick the right religion, you have to pick the right sect of the right religion, and there are about 50,000 different people for each of the different sects of Christianity. Yet when you ask any of these hundreds of thousands of people for any proof that their deity or deities exist, or proof that their religion is true and all the others are false, the only things they can offer you are logical fallacies, mindlessly parroted scripture, insults, accusations, threats, bribes, obvious lies, or maybe a quick shot across the jaw. None of them appear to be any more true or any more good than any of the others. Now, because all these people's beliefs are mutually exclusive, they can't all be right. Either only one of them is right, or they're all wrong. Assuming there is only one right one, I have about a .000002% chance of picking the right one. And no matter which one I pick, I'm still going to 499,999 out of the 500,000 possible Hells. So the question is...why should I pick yours?

Oh, and don't say "Because mine is the one true one!" because that's what they all say.

1. not trying to sound rude but this is a problem because of people like you. Christians are mocked, insulted, etc. if they dare invade someone's comfort zone. Now, I don't defend all forms of evangelism, but the scenario you presented is exactly why people are willing to use fear and scare tactics to convert people. If you knew someone was headed toward a cliff that they couldn't see, you would use whatever means you could to stop them. Those means are the ones that you attack and mock every chance you get.

2. as I alluded to earlier, you have once again assumed you know something that you don't. I did not grow up in church, and spent plenty of time hating God, doubting God and everything he stood for. I do know what it is like to be an outsider and I completely understand why plenty of people don't want to have anything to do with me or my church.

3. your math is wrong to begin with. before getting into sects of the same religion, you are only dealing with around 5 actual religions that have any basis for which people should believe them. Once someone decides which of those they believe, then, if they choose, they may study to decide which sect of that religion is the most in line with the teachings of God. Also, your math implies that you are going to be picking at random. You can eliminate numerous choices just by looking at the history and validity of each religion.
When I talk to people who genuinely want to know (are actually searching) I start by telling them why I believe. Not why they should. I think that my life and the way I conduct myself, along with my story (why I am who I am and why I believe what I do) will go farther to share Jesus than any argument or scare tactic I can use.

[gatorboymike]

1. not trying to sound rude but this is a problem because of people like you. Christians are mocked, insulted, etc. if they dare invade someone's comfort zone. Now, I don't defend all forms of evangelism, but the scenario you presented is exactly why people are willing to use fear and scare tactics to convert people. If you knew someone was headed toward a cliff that they couldn't see, you would use whatever means you could to stop them. Those means are the ones that you attack and mock every chance you get.

Fear and scare tactics aren't a substitute for genuine concern for the welfare of others. Anyone who was serious about "saving" anyone would ask them to sit down and have a respectful discussion in which they make their case. They wouldn't gang-jump random passersby waving provocative signs and shouting at them with a venomous sneer about how they're going to H-E-L-L and there's nothing they can do about it. People who do that know they're supposed to "spread the word" but don't really care if anyone else goes to H-E-L-L or not. They're just trying to do the absolute worst and least they possibly can and still get off the hook, like a small child doing household chores. That kind of behavior is nothing but an excuse to be able to tell God, "Hey, I tried! Pass the ketchup."

2. as I alluded to earlier, you have once again assumed you know something that you don't. I did not grow up in church, and spent plenty of time hating God, doubting God and everything he stood for. I do know what it is like to be an outsider and I completely understand why plenty of people don't want to have anything to do with me or my church.

Well if I was wrong then I was wrong, but I hope you don't seriously expect me to remember everything you say. I have no recollection whatsoever of hearing your life story.

3. your math is wrong to begin with. before getting into sects of the same religion, you are only dealing with around 5 actual religions that have any basis for which people should believe them. Once someone decides which of those they believe, then, if they choose, they may study to decide which sect of that religion is the most in line with the teachings of God. Also, your math implies that you are going to be picking at random. You can eliminate numerous choices just by looking at the history and validity of each religion.
When I talk to people who genuinely want to know (are actually searching) I start by telling them why I believe. Not why they should. I think that my life and the way I conduct myself, along with my story (why I am who I am and why I believe what I do) will go farther to share Jesus than any argument or scare tactic I can use.

And those five religions would be what exactly? By saying that, it's obvious you missed my point. If I were to eliminate choices based on their "history and validity" then Christianity would be the very first to go, with absolutely no question, hesitation or reconsideration. Where you get the idea that I'd narrow the entire field down to the exact same five you would, I have no idea, because I have no idea what criteria you're using to rule them out, and you have not explained that to me. Remember that as far as I'm concerned, Christianity, Judaism and Islam look virtually no different from Scientology, Wicca and cargo cults. And just one more thing...it's the "way you conduct yourself" that got me so angry at you in the first place. But I'm trying to keep myself on a leash, because no one's ever been able to give me a satisfactory answer to this question and you seem like you want to answer these as best you can.

[ensbergcollector]

Fear and scare tactics aren't a substitute for genuine concern for the welfare of others. Anyone who was serious about "saving" anyone would ask them to sit down and have a respectful discussion in which they make their case. They wouldn't gang-jump random passersby waving provocative signs and shouting at them with a venomous sneer about how they're going to H-E-L-L and there's nothing they can do about it. People who do that know they're supposed to "spread the word" but don't really care if anyone else goes to H-E-L-L or not. They're just trying to do the absolute worst and least they possibly can and still get off the hook, like a small child doing household chores. That kind of behavior is nothing but an excuse to be able to tell God, "Hey, I tried! Pass the ketchup."



Well if I was wrong then I was wrong, but I hope you don't seriously expect me to remember everything you say. I have no recollection whatsoever of hearing your life story.



And those five religions would be what exactly? By saying that, it's obvious you missed my point. If I were to eliminate choices based on their "history and validity" then Christianity would be the very first to go, with absolutely no question, hesitation or reconsideration. Where you get the idea that I'd narrow the entire field down to the exact same five you would, I have no idea, because I have no idea what criteria you're using to rule them out, and you have not explained that to me. Remember that as far as I'm concerned, Christianity, Judaism and Islam look virtually no different from Scientology, Wicca and cargo cults. And just one more thing...it's the "way you conduct yourself" that got me so angry at you in the first place. But I'm trying to keep myself on a leash, because no one's ever been able to give me a satisfactory answer to this question and you seem like you want to answer these as best you can.

1. I absolutely agree. The people who resort to scare tactics are people who don't understand how to genuinely care for someone IMO. Not proud by any means, but I almost came to blows with someone at church camp because they insisted on studying with a teenager using a fear based study. So, go figure, we agree completely at least on that.

2. I don't expect you to remember everything. You just seemed to state your information as fact and not question. You assumed that because I am a christian that I have no clue what it is like to not be one.

3. if I can ask, why, if using history and validity, would christianity be the first to go? what claim does christianity make that makes it that much more easy to dismiss than any other?
as for "the way I conduct myself"...let me take the opportunity to apologize. I know that over the course of our many back and forths I have probably posted many things that have not been a good reflection of the God I worship or what I believe. Not sure if you believe me or not, but I am sincerely sorry and I will strive to not be rude or condecinding when talking about religion again.
I really do want to try my best to answer your question.

[piranhaenter]

I know I've been talking about the Gita here, have you read or researched the Mahabharata during your studies. If so what did you take from it?

[ensbergcollector]

I know I've been talking about the Gita here, have you read or researched the Mahabharata during your studies. If so what did you take from it?

i actually haven't. i will have to look into it and do some reading.

[gatorboymike]

3. if I can ask, why, if using history and validity, would christianity be the first to go? what claim does christianity make that makes it that much more easy to dismiss than any other?

There are many reasons. First, the early history of Christianity indicates that its origins were most definitely earthly rather than divine. For example, the fragmentation of the faith - read Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman for a good discussion of this, the fact that there was nothing written about Jesus until decades after his death, the establishment of the New Testament by popular vote at the Council of Nicea, and so on. It was all just a giant, disorganized mess for quite a while, and how could that be so if it was really carrying a message from God?

Second, contradictions in scripture and inconsistencies in Christian dogma. Read the gospels and you'll see they contradict each other all over the place, and you can tell that the story just gets more and more dramatized with each one, as the legend blew up and became bigger. Not to mention that the characters of Yahweh as the Old Testament god and Jesus as the New Testament god are diametrically opposed...these cannot be the same god. There are many places where the writing has obviously been edited by someone else to make it fit better with the overall theme, and Christian scholars admit this. Also, the fact that there were two books of Revelation written, but only one went into the NT; the one written by the guy who was high on mushrooms (the Apocalypse of John) went in, and the other one (the Apocalypse of Peter) was kept out because it was so brutal and violent that nobody liked hearing it.

Third, ever since Christianity became prominent, it has sought to insert itself into all kinds of governments and political bodies, often with disastrous results. It has started wars, killed billions of people, pushed the scientific progress of humanity back 1,500 years, justified slavery, torture and hate, and I would bet that it is responsible for more horrors than every other religion combined. Anyone who was truly in touch with and inspired by a benevolent, all-knowing and all-loving being would never do anything like the abominations Christianity is responsible for.

Fourth, the overall message of Christianity does not seem appealing to me whatsoever. Christianity would have me believe that I was created by a giant, invisible man, specifically for the purpose of either kissing his butt forever or being tortured for not kissing his butt forever just so he can have some sick laughs. It would have me believe that my life is inherently worthless and can only ever not be so by kissing said invisible man's butt. It would have me believe that the world I live in is inherently evil, filled with evil things that want to trick me into joining them and against which the only defense is bull-headed adherence to blind faith, the playground of the most evil entity in the universe. It would have me believe that I am inherently evil because I was born, and because of something the very first humans did a long time ago...apparently I and everyone else who has ever lived is personally guilty of that crime. It would have me believe that my job while I'm here is to suffer, suffer, and suffer some more, and like a rabid masochist, to always respond with, "Thank you, sir. May I have another?" It would have me believe that I could be the kindest, most loving, most generous, most humble, most wise and most fulfilled person who ever lived, and still be evil, and still deserve to die, and still deserve to be tortured forever, but if I spent my whole life killing, raping and stealing to my heart's content and kissed the invisible man's butt two seconds before I died, then I'd be good and I'd deserve to be rewarded forever. Christianity is a religion that values blind obedience, mindless subservience, group membership and a "happy slave" mentality. Christianity does not value actual virtue or goodness at all, in fact it condemns it. "None is good except God" = "You're evil, everything you ever do, say and think is evil, and there's nothing you can do about it."

That's my opinion, and that's why I don't think Christianity has history or validity on its side. That's not meant to be taken personally, and it's not to say I don't have equally vicious criticisms of other religions. And if you're offended then I'm sorry, but you did ask why I felt that way.

[daniel3417]

as for #2. the bible does tell us not to stop "meeting together" so I don't think you can go through life without any other christian fellowship. Christianity is supposed to be about relationships with God and with others.

Certainly. And I would say that the vast majority of the fellowship occurs outside of the 1 hour/week most Christians put in. I do see the benefit of attending church, but you can gain the same experince and interaction in your home, school, or Starbucks ().

For further clarification, is it necessary to be baptised, regularly attend church, etc. etc. to be "admitted" into Heaven?

Here's my view: You could never go to church, never acknowledge Jesus as your Savior (ceremonially), but still love yourself, love others, and love God by doing both of those. I feel as if people put too much emphasis on man-made laws like physical communion, physical baptism, and petty demoninational quarrels.

[ensbergcollector]

gatorboy- definately going to reply, wanted to do a little reading before I responded, and no you didn't offend me at all. you bring up very valid questions.

daniel - I will answer your question with a question. what does it mean to be faithful to God? I say that because, I feel that baptism is essential but not for the reason most do. I think the New Testament is very clear on baptism being the step immediately following the acceptance of Jesus. So, if someone chooses not to be baptized, I would question why and if they are seriously trying to follow.

I definately think denominational quarrels are horrible. Church of Christ too long thought they were the only christians getting into heaven. I think that is absurd and offensive. However, I don't think communion or baptism are man made laws. I feel both were instituted by Jesus and affirmed by the apostles following his death.