Datsyuk chokejob cost Wings?

[gregmal05]

Greg you say if you look outside 07/08 and 06/07 is that fair. As those were two years they made decent runs. In two seasons they wings only played 9 games. Hardly something to take a big overview. As anyone can get in short streaks. So you can't really factor those in. Of course with 12 ans 10 games (22 total) He put up 14 points which is about almost a .7.

I understand and I am not really one to cherry pick numbers, but Datsyuk IMO is one guy who come playoff time is either hit or miss (more often than not a miss) rather than consistent like many other guys on the team.

Again where have you seen me say he the best player in hockey. I don't see too many news articles even putting him up there as the BEST PLAYER. I bet if you look most of it would be Detroit papers talking their team up. Only time his name comes up with As for goal scoring you see me say over and over Ovie, Crosby, and Malkin with no discussion. Of course if you want to talk two way hockey there is a argument.

Its not you, but there always seems to be a fairly moderate sized crowd talking up Datsyuk whenever the Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin debate takes place.

If two way hockey is overblown I clearly remember last year when I thought Pittsburgh was going to make a comeback and possibly win the cup then when the Wings as a team led by Zetty I believe was on a 3 on 5 with the pens on a 2 man advantage. They killed that and that what two way hockey is all about a team that can play like that. Some stars I would not want to put in that position. Sorry I wouldn't want Ovie in that kind of situation.

What I meant was that individual 2 way hockey is very overrated. For a whole team though it is the exact opposite. For instance the argument for Datsyuk being better than somebody like Ovechkin is because he plays defense. However, regardless of how good Datsyuk is on defense, his individual defense does not actually prevent that many goals when compared to the average player. Contrarily, a team full of solid 2 way players, such as the Wings, prevents a ton of goals. Pretty much one of those "the sum of the whole is greater than that of its parts" type thing.

I coached team sports in organized setting and to me I rather have a balanced team as when one guy is the main guy tomorrow it the next one. As it a team sport and no matter how great that one player is usually they cannot overcome a good balanced team that has players that can step up their game when needed.

Definitely agree with you on this.

My question to you would be if Hossa and Pavel are such big chokers why were the Wings even in the Cup Finals to begin with. As they should been sitting at home. I mean Lord knows we don't even have a good goalie so again why are we there. As it a team sport and it not based on one guy choking but a team that doesn't step up.

Why? Because they are an excellent all around team. Heck they won a few games in the WCF without Lidstrom, they also won without Datsyuk, they won with both Datsyuk and to a slightly lesser extent Hossa not contributing offensively; they won throughout the regular season with shaky goaltending, all in all they lost in 7 games in the SCF despite all that, not too shabby.

It cool to be tongue in cheek but I am not big on chokes unless it a pattern for a long time career. I posted a article that focused on this before the Playoffs began. As it stated most guys numbers on a average go down when the playoffs starts as Defensive hockey take over. As I think Mark Messier was the best when the playoffs came compared to his regular numbers as his stats always went up in the playoffs. Of course the majority of NHL'ers scoring goes down. So it not a choke it the average of most players to do that. Last but not least you want to focus on the one goal but leave out the 8 assist. It all about lightning up the lamp and no matter if it assist or goal who cares as it a point race.

Don

I agree, the post was more so meant to stir the pot and get some perspective on why certain guys get railed for lack of production, to the point where it haunts them, yet others seem to get a pass. As I've said plenty times before that there is no such thing as choking/being clutch IMO. They are all statistical anomalies that occur because of a lack of sample size that gets blown up by fans/media. Mark Messier was not clutch so much as he was a great hockey player. Same goes for Sakic. Patrick Roy was supposedly "clutch" right, until he got blown up in a couple big games. Was he less clutch? No, he just played more games and the numbers came back down to Earth. Ranger fans are seeing first hand how "clutch" Chris Drury is. Same goes for choking, Peyton Manning was labeled a huge choker til 07, then he wins and all of a sudden he is one of the greatest. Cujo is another one you mentioned. He's a guy who's sheer reputation for being a choker has kept him from being portrayed as the great goaltender he was.

[doniceage]

and people say Thornton chokes when he's nearly a point a game average each year in the playoffs

Yep that is so true as he gets blamed time and time again.

DOn

[doniceage]

Greg,
As with all things read this. See who is Cluth as you missed this post. I post a lot in chat as I do not get caught up in the pro wings or pro team post all the time. I just love hockey and try to share it. See here is what you need to do Greg. Write a article called CHOKE instead of CLUTCH.

Take a peek as I posted last month:

https://www.sportscardforum.com/showt...hlight=messier

[michiganice91]

pavel has a strong defensive game. He leads the league in takeaways and starts rushes the other way. He is a pure passer and a playmaker, not necessarily a huge goal scorer like Franzen. He did not choke, but he didn't score maybe as many goals as we would have liked either. Franzen stepped up in the scoring department as well as the griffins guys.

[gregmal05]

Greg,
As with all things read this. See who is Cluth as you missed this post. I post a lot in chat as I do not get caught up in the pro wings or pro team post all the time. I just love hockey and try to share it. See here is what you need to do Greg. Write a article called CHOKE instead of CLUTCH.

Take a peek as I posted last month:

https://www.sportscardforum.com/showt...hlight=messier

Good article. It definitely has some good analysis, however again I think there are reasons for those guys excelling in the playoffs other than the simple "he performed when it mattered" explanation. The thing I would guess it comes down to is matchups. Most if not all of those guys on the list there, including Messier for most of his career, were secondary players. Fedorov, Lemieux, Holmstrom, Messier, etc were all very good if not great players, however they all had better players on their teams for most of their careers such as Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, etc, which would mean they were more likely then not benefitting from mismatches as a result of being on teams that had great depth. That is ultimately why Malkin ended up with the Conn Smythe instead of Crosby. Crosby was the first line guy who Detroit, and other teams matched up their best defensive guys against, while Malkin, a great player in his own right was able to tear it up against lesser talent. Put Malkin, Messier, or any of those other guys on a team where they are the ONLY option, and I think their "clutchness" is not as eminent. That is what happens with Joe Thornton.

[kevhur]

first off, great discusion.
I think Hossa was disapointment, although Pavel didn't seem as "effective" (don't want to use the C word), but everytime time he touched the puck I was thinking " hit 'em! don't let him touch that puck! etc. He has the ability to make something happen everytime he touches the puck. As does Crosby, Malkin, Gretzky, Gilmour etc. ( had to throw a Leaf in there).

I think Zetterberg was one of the most impressive. Winning faceoffs, double shifting, shawdowing Crosby. He did it all and did it well.

I think that the abilityto make something happen every single time is the mark of a good playoff performer, points and goals certainly help, so does stopping them. I don't think Hossa elevated his game at all, I don't think Thorton elevates his game for the playoffs either...
Claude Lemieux is a great example of this, love him or hate him, he was always great in the playoffs, during his prime any team would've wanted him, except Detroit of course.
That's what I think greatness is.... Jordan had it, Montanna had it, Patrick Roy had it. These guys all carried teams on their shoulders to win.
Luongo tried to do it this year and couldn't. Everyone says it takes a whole team, but these guys have shown that an individual can change the outcome in a team sport.

So with that said... Hossa can not be mentioned in that group above, can Datsyuk?? I don't think so, Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin, maybe....? They are still really young and have not hit their prime years.... should be fun to watch in 5 years when they gain a little experience...lol

thoughts?




.

[CSSports]

pavel has a strong defensive game. He leads the league in takeaways and starts rushes the other way. He is a pure passer and a playmaker, not necessarily a huge goal scorer like Franzen. He did not choke, but he didn't score maybe as many goals as we would have liked either. Franzen stepped up in the scoring department as well as the griffins guys.

There is no doubt he plays a defensive game but with the season he had versus the playoffs that he had....it was a disappointing playoffs....his playoff point production was less than half of what he did during the season.....He is, by far, not the only player to suck it up in the playoffs but being a canidate for MVP and being in the top 5 in scoring.....makes more people come out and say he choked....

[gregmal05]

first off, great discusion.
I think Hossa was disapointment, although Pavel didn't seem as "effective" (don't want to use the C word), but everytime time he touched the puck I was thinking " hit 'em! don't let him touch that puck! etc. He has the ability to make something happen everytime he touches the puck. As does Crosby, Malkin, Gretzky, Gilmour etc. ( had to throw a Leaf in there).

I think Zetterberg was one of the most impressive. Winning faceoffs, double shifting, shawdowing Crosby. He did it all and did it well.

I think that the abilityto make something happen every single time is the mark of a good playoff performer, points and goals certainly help, so does stopping them. I don't think Hossa elevated his game at all, I don't think Thorton elevates his game for the playoffs either...
Claude Lemieux is a great example of this, love him or hate him, he was always great in the playoffs, during his prime any team would've wanted him, except Detroit of course.
That's what I think greatness is.... Jordan had it, Montanna had it, Patrick Roy had it. These guys all carried teams on their shoulders to win.
Luongo tried to do it this year and couldn't. Everyone says it takes a whole team, but these guys have shown that an individual can change the outcome in a team sport.

So with that said... Hossa can not be mentioned in that group above, can Datsyuk?? I don't think so, Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin, maybe....? They are still really young and have not hit their prime years.... should be fun to watch in 5 years when they gain a little experience...lol

thoughts?




.

As far as the younger guys I do not think it is fair to label them as anything. Wasn't Malkin accused of choking in last years finals despite having a ton of points in the previous 3 series? Then this year he wins Conn Smythe. The exact opposite happened with Crosby. Called clutch last year, given grief this year. Even Hossa is a guy who has been on/off choker/clutch depending on the year. IMO it has nothing to do with either, it is merely statistical variance that is solely the result of the small sample size of games in the playoffs. And Ovechkin? I do not know what he is going to have to do to appease people. He had 9 points in 7 games against Philly last year, and 5 points in the first 4 games against the Rangers and people were saying he was getting shut down!

[Dergula]

ITs a shame that Cujo never won. :( He was great.

[07mears07]

I think the wings just couldnt capitalize on the mistakes, Pittsburgh could. Pittsburgh deserves the cup because they capitalized on the mitsakes the Wings made