The Official Chat Thread of the 2010 New York Yankees

[thedocisin]

I totally agree and have always said we (the Yankees) need Halladay. Remember too that he is a mentor for AJ Burnett, and i bet Burnett would be a better pitcher with Halladay on the Yankees too. At his age, he has plenty of good years left, and prospects are always iffy, there is no guarantee how good (or bad) Jackson and Montero will be, and still no guarantee how good Hughes and Joba will be.

He would be a good mentor to any young Pitcher. He is the sole reason Romero won 12 games this year. He didn't even insruct AJ that much. AJ was quoted as saying I learned how to be a major league pitcher just by watching Halladay. Whoever didn't get traded to the Jays in return, Hughes or Joba, would learn more in one season with Halladay than they did in their entire career in the Yankee system.

Although I will follow him where ever he goes, I'll cry if he becomes a Yankee. You guys don't deserve him.

[Velvet Hoop]

Signing a free agent and giving up prospects + signing an extension are two completely different matters.

The Yankees did what they needed to do last offseason to win the World Series. That's why they got AJ. They picked up the two best pitchers on the market to get them in position to win now. If there was a better alternative to Burnett, they certainly would not have given him the contract they did. His signing was a culmination of circumstances. If Halladay hits the market next year, I would guess they'd be one of the front-runners to sign him.

They won't trade Hughes/Joba + Montero for Halladay. It's just not going to happen. They wouldn't trade Hughes + Kennedy/Wang/Joba + Melky for Santana when they were MUCH more desperate for pitching for the same reason they won't trade for Halladay. If the Red Sox have to give up Buchholz, Ellsbury, and another prospect, I'm fine with him going to Boston.

Halladay is a top 3 pitcher in baseball right now. He would definitely help the Yankees win now, and he should be traded for if the price is not too high. Joba/Hughes + Montero is too much. Acquiring Halladay at that price forces the Yankees to balloon the payroll in the short-term and place all their chips in the "we're getting Mauer" basket... which I'm not even sure Mauer will leave. Keeping younger talent on the roster allows the team to have even more financial flexibility in other places. Having 30y/o+ multi-million dollar talent at every starting position completely handcuffs the organization. Every move has consequences, and basing your opinion on whether or not the Yankees should acquire Halladay on the sole fact that he's a great pitcher completely ignores a variety of extremely important factors.

I don't see how any of this is arrogant. I haven't said anything of ill-will towards Halladay or Toronto. I guess you took offense to me saying the team that won the World Series doesn't need your team's best player. The team didn't "need" Pujols last year. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want him on the team. I have full confidence in both Joba and Hughes going forward, that's all.

[thedocisin]

I don't see how any of this is arrogant. I haven't said anything of ill-will towards Halladay or Toronto. I guess you took offense to me saying the team that won the World Series doesn't need your team's best player. The team didn't "need" Pujols last year. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want him on the team. I have full confidence in both Joba and Hughes going forward, that's all.

My comment of arrogance wasn't directed at you specifically. It was directed at all Yankee fans everywhere.
1. I don't see how you think Joba or Hughes plus Montero is too much. You aren't going to get him for any less than that. Again you are under estimating halladay's worth.
2. The Yankees have always been a team of 30 somethings, basing their core around big market free agents. That's how they have been successful, with their wallets. Their farm system has never been spectacular. They have had a few highly touted guys come through their system. Since the mid 90's they haven't really produced a superstar through their farm system, not since the crop of jeter, rivera, and petite. Maybe Cano and Melky but their not really superstars.
Hughes has been a disappointment in my opinion. He hasn't really stepped up as a quality starter as he was hyped to be. You can say the same for Joba.
3. If he goes to Boston they would probably have to offer Casey Kelly or Daniel Bard + Clay Bucholz. Elsbury isn't going anywhere.
4. Since when did the Yankees care about payroll? When they signed Burnett to $80 mil they showed payroll didn't matter. I still can't believe that contract. He's a 3rd or 4th starter at best. Just crazy.

The Yankees are the champs no doubt. But their are some key teams who are going to get significantly better while the Yankees rely on the same guys, possibly losing Damon and Matsui. Mediocre pitching will only get you so far. If Boston lands Halladay then it's a coin toss as to who wins the AL East. I would even favor Boston with that rotation. They need to get Bay signed though.

[Velvet Hoop]

A package of Hughes/Joba and Montero is bigger than Buchholz/Bard and Kelly. It's not close in my opinion. I haven't said Halladay in a vacuum isn't worth anything. I have said giving up that package and then having to extend him is completely different.

I think you're overestimating his worth in this situation and Toronto's position as far as leverage is concerned. Given the "deadline," they have three months to get a deal done. The two most interested teams are in division and won't overpay a team in division. The same two teams have the financial ability to just blow every other team away with money in the next offseason. The only chance they get a decent package is if a team like the Angels get involved and are then pitted against an interested Boston. I would expect if he's moved they'll get a package similar to what the Twins got for Santana.

The Yankees farm system will always be mediocre, that's why it's important that when they have players they've developed that can contribute, they hang on to them to give them flexibility in other places.

They needed a #2 starter last year, and they got AJ. Like I said, it was the culmination of circumstances. But the contract doesn't look half as bad as Derek Lowe's, who lots of people thought was a better sign than AJ.

As far as the Joba and Hughes have been disappointments... I love that argument. People have such unrealistic expectations for young pitchers. If that's the stance you're taking on them... what was your opinion of Halladay's first two years in the Majors?

I'm fine with the Yankees rotation going forward, but I would sign a low-risk, high-reward free agents just in case. Halladay at the right price would be great, but I think Toronto is going to want more than what the Yankees will be willing to part with.

[thedocisin]

A package of Hughes/Joba and Montero is bigger than Buchholz/Bard and Kelly. It's not close in my opinion. I haven't said Halladay in a vacuum isn't worth anything. I have said giving up that package and then having to extend him is completely different.

I think you're overestimating his worth in this situation and Toronto's position as far as leverage is concerned. Given the "deadline," they have three months to get a deal done. The two most interested teams are in division and won't overpay a team in division. The same two teams have the financial ability to just blow every other team away with money in the next offseason. The only chance they get a decent package is if a team like the Angels get involved and are then pitted against an interested Boston. I would expect if he's moved they'll get a package similar to what the Twins got for Santana.

The Yankees farm system will always be mediocre, that's why it's important that when they have players they've developed that can contribute, they hang on to them to give them flexibility in other places.

They needed a #2 starter last year, and they got AJ. Like I said, it was the culmination of circumstances. But the contract doesn't look half as bad as Derek Lowe's, who lots of people thought was a better sign than AJ.

As far as the Joba and Hughes have been disappointments... I love that argument. People have such unrealistic expectations for young pitchers. If that's the stance you're taking on them... what was your opinion of Halladay's first two years in the Majors?

I'm fine with the Yankees rotation going forward, but I would sign a low-risk, high-reward free agents just in case. Halladay at the right price would be great, but I think Toronto is going to want more than what the Yankees will be willing to part with.

1. As a starter, I would take Buchholz over Joba or Hughes anyday. He is filthy and he has great poise for his age. I saw him pitch live twice and he is the real deal. I've also seen both Joba and Hughes pitch live on numerous occasions (I was a Jays season ticket holder) and it's never pretty. I don't like Joba as a starter. Hughes maybe. But they both seem better off in the bullpen. As far as prospects are concerned Montero might be better than Kelly. I don't know much about Kelly only that he is the Red Sox #1 prospect and that he pitches and plays SS.

2. if a deal is done with any team, it WILL be for a major league ready pitcher (i.e Hughes, Buchholz, Happ) + a top rated prospect. The Yankees are naive if they think they can get Halladay straight up for either Hughes or Joba. That's just not going to happen. The Jays know they aren't going to get the deal they were looking for last year (i.e. Happ, Drabek + 1more). But they know they'll get more than one pitcher still trying to live up to potential (Hughes).

3. Halladay's road to MLB was much diferent than Hughes or Joba's. Actually his first three years were garbage. He threw over the top and had no command. He was throwing 97-98 mph but couldn't throw strikes. In 2001 he started the year in AAA and changed his entire mechanics to a 3/4 delivery while taking 2-3mph off his fastball for better command. He learned how to throw a cutter and a change and since he was called back up in the middle of the 2001 campaign he has been the best pitcher in baseball. What will Hughes and Joba do to turn into quality starters? They are pretty decent relievers. Maybe that is their calling.

Halladay next year at $15mil is a bargain. If the Yankees want to take their chances at signing him at the end of 2010 then good luck. He is going to want CC money and he deserves it since he would be the #1 starter over CC.

I know he won't be a Yankee. I'm pretty sure he's bound for bean town. It's just crazy that you think a prospect and an unproven (as a starter) pitcher in Hughes or Joba is not worth the price for Halladay. I agree with you regarding the Yankees money situation. Forget about extensions. Is Halladay (a superstar) not worth Montero (an unproven prospect) and Hughes (currently a reliever)?

No respect.

[Velvet Hoop]

You're taking this way too personally...

1. You can't "forget extensions" since that's a real-world problem. You are consistently looking at this in a vacuum.

2. No, Halladay is not worth Montero, Joba/Hughes, and an extension.

3. I've never said the Jays should take a package of anything. I've said Joba/Hughes + Kennedy + Gardner (as per suggested by some article) is not enough and Joba/Hughes + Montero is too much. The Jays will want more than the Yankees will give up, so they won't be trade partners.

[thedocisin]

You're taking this way too personally...

1. You can't "forget extensions" since that's a real-world problem. You are consistently looking at this in a vacuum.

2. No, Halladay is not worth Montero, Joba/Hughes, and an extension.

3. I've never said the Jays should take a package of anything. I've said Joba/Hughes + Kennedy + Gardner (as per suggested by some article) is not enough and Joba/Hughes + Montero is too much. The Jays will want more than the Yankees will give up, so they won't be trade partners.

LOL. This isn't personal. I just think you are a being a little narrow minded. To say Halladay isn't worth Joba/Hughes + Montero + an Extension is foolish. For Yankees fans sake lets hope you never become GM.

The Jays haven't lost that much leverage just because they have a deadline to move him. Teams still want him. As long as there are teams that compete against each other it will drive the price up.

If the Yankees truly want Halladay, and they should because they have a mediocre rotation, then waiting for Halladay to become a free agent is a mistake. The Jays aren't going to let him get to free agency and take 2 compensation picks when they can get something else MLB ready. Whichever team Halladay approves, he will sign an extension with them. He isn't going to go to a team for one year then leave for free agency. Hence if the Yankees want him they need to trade for him. If they want to trade for him they need to offer a MLB ready pitcher and a top non-pitching prospect. That's just the way it is. If they aren't willing to do that then all this so called interest that the Yankees have in Halladay is just an attempt to drive up the price for the Red Sox.

[spuds1961]

They don't need halladay as that mediocre pitching staff already brought us the world series this past year,I think he is getting more praise then he deserves as what has toronto as a team done the past 10 years.He may be a great pitcher but hey what type of pressure is there when you're pitching for a middle of the road team that has no chance at the playoffs year in and year out.I'D RATHER LET HIM GO TO THE RED SOX AND LET THEM DEPLETE SOME OF THEIR YOUNG TALENT AND HAVE THE YANKEES TAKE THEIR CHANCES WITH WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

[thedocisin]

They don't need halladay as that mediocre pitching staff already brought us the world series this past year,I think he is getting more praise then he deserves as what has toronto as a team done the past 10 years.He may be a great pitcher but hey what type of pressure is there when you're pitching for a middle of the road team that has no chance at the playoffs year in and year out.I'D RATHER LET HIM GO TO THE RED SOX AND LET THEM DEPLETE SOME OF THEIR YOUNG TALENT AND HAVE THE YANKEES TAKE THEIR CHANCES WITH WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

You're right. He must feel no pressure to dominate the Yankees as he has in his career.
The Yankee bats won the world series last year. Certainly not their rotation. It's too bad Cliff Lee couldn't have started all four games. It would have been a sweep. Lee showed good pitching will shut down good hitting more often than not. Just like Halladay did in September when he no-hit the yankees through 6 innings on his way to a 1 hit shut out.
If the Red Sox land Halladay it's an even playing field in the AL east again. I hope they do. The Red Sox would have the best rotation in Baseball with a A+ lineup to back them up.

[Velvet Hoop]

We'll see what happens. I completely disagree with 80-85% of what you're saying, and you feel the same way towards me... so the circular argument is useless. I will guarantee, for the record, the Yankees do not trade both Joba or Hughes and Montero for Halladay.