Evidence for the Christian god

[gatorboymike]

Whether or not Christians have evidence for the existence of their god is a talking point that comes up very frequently in discussions between them and atheists. Right now, I'd like to list off the most common responses I get from Christians when I ask them for such evidence.

10. "You know my God exists, you're just pretending to not believe in him so you can sin all you want because you hate God!"

I won't lie, I do love to sin. Sin = win. Irrespective, you can't hate something you don't believe in. "You know the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny exist, you just pretend you don't believe in them because you hate them and you want to keep all your baby teeth and chocolate eggs for yourself!" And while I think Richard Dawkins may be right when he calls Yahweh "the most unpleasant character in all of fiction," that doesn't inspire any more real-world hate than I have for the Wicked Witch of the West, Hannibal Lecter or Bowser from Super Mario. Do tell me, Mr. Christian, what exactly it is in my manner of speaking or acting that suggests to you that I really do believe in your god. If I really believed that there was a being out there that could read my thoughts and watch everything I ever did, that it had a special list of things it did and did not want me to do, and would commit me to either eternal reward or eternal torture based on how well I complied with said list of demands, I'm pretty sure I would be right there with you in that church, loudly offering praise to said being while breaking out in paranoid sweat. Oh, you can't point to anything I say or do that suggests I think that? You get that from some book? So the book knows me better than I know myself? Get outta here. Furthermore, even if I did really believe that, that still wouldn't count as evidence for your god, it would just mean I was as irrational and superstitious as you are. And, I could just turn the same argument around on you. You're only pretending not to believe in Allah/Krishna/Zeus/Oden/Thor/The Invisible Pink Unicorn because you hate it and just want to sin. Did that argument work on you? Then you know why yours didn't work on me. Fail.

9. "I prayed for X, and X happened!"

Well, if X was something you had no way of affecting, then X would have happened whether you prayed for it or not. If X was something you did or some accomplishment of yours, then you should be congratulating yourself, not god. Every religion claims their prayers are answered. This wouldn't be evidence of anything unless only Christians' prayers were answered, or Christians' prayers were answered at a rate that greatly exceeded the rate at which other religions' prayers were answered. And so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that is so. Do you think the sun wouldn't come up and that traffic lights wouldn't turn green unless you prayed for them? Do you think the world would explode unless you prayed for it? Well then have at it, hoss, because you're too far gone for me to reach. Fail.

8. "I wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for God!"

Oh really? How do you figure? Are you walking around with a mortal wound or some vital organ missing, yet somehow magically not dying? No, I'm betting this is going to turn into a "my incurable disease was cured" story. Furthermore, I'm betting your understanding of biology and medicine are not industry standard. And even at a professional level, doctors will admit we don't know everything about the human body's healing ability. You can claim it's really your god poking and prodding around in your half-liquified corpse, but I bet you have nothing to back that claim up. Show me a professional medical journal wherein the doctors who treated you say that somehow the laws of physics were defied and you made a recovery that was absolutely physically impossible. If that had happened, you'd probably be in some government laboratory right now being poked and prodded by scientists trying to figure out how you were healed rather than walking free and annoying atheists with spooky stories. Fail.

7. "Oh yeah? Well, if God doesn't exist, then where did you come from?"

Well, you see, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much...[BIRDS AND BEES]...and nine months later, I was born. Where did god enter into that equation? At what stage of the biological process of sexual reproduction is there a gap in human knowledge big enough to make a Yahweh sandwich out of? Fail.

6. "I feel God in my heart!"

Ah, no. No you don't. If you felt anything in your heart, you'd drop dead. The heart is a blood pump. That's all it does. It's not a sensory organ, it's not a spiritual repository, it's not a box for you to dump mysticism into, it's a blood pump. And surely, if god was in your heart, we could surgically remove your heart and find god in there. You'd die, of course, but you don't value this life or this world or anyone or anything in it anyway, and the sooner you get to that afterlife you have so much faith in (but no proof of), where everything REALLY matters, the better, right? And surely, if we could furnish medical proof of the Christian god's existence, that would convert millions and millions to Christianity. So how 'bout it? You want to donate that heart of yours for the cause? No? Then I guess you don't really feel god in there after all. Fail.

5. "This spooky story happened to me or somebody I know. God must have been behind it!"

So now you're asking me to put as much faith in you or somebody you know as you want me to put in your god? Why should I just assume this spooky story of yours is accurate? Now you must provide evidence that it's true. And I bet you can't. As Bart Ehrman said, a miracle is always the least likely explanation for anything. It's far more likely you don't fully understand what happened, you've been lied to, or you're just lying yourself. I don't take people's word on faith the way you do, and I never will. Trying that approach on me = fail.

4. "Oh yeah? Well, if God doesn't exist, then where did the universe come from?"

Nobody knows. I don't know, and neither do you. And don't try that line about how atheism and/or evolution is a faith-based belief that everything came from nothing. The only people who believe everything came from nothing are creationists. But we like to exercise Socratic ignorance here; that is, it's better to admit you don't know rather than pretend you do know when you really don't. And it's NOT true that any answer is better than no answer. Because if you just make something up and defend your made-up answer to the death, like Christians do, then you won't recognize or accept the actual answer when and if it is ever discovered. Just saying you know where the universe came from doesn't prove that you really know. And just saying we should just listen to your story because we don't know is invalid. Fail.

3. "The Bible proves God exists!"

No, the Bible is where the claim of god's existence is made. The claim and the proof can't come from the same source. The Bible can't be used to prove the Bible. And don't bother showing me where one part of the Bible says X is going to happen and another part that says X happened. Once again, the Bible can't be used to prove the Bible. You have to find an extrabiblical source to confirm what it says. And also, I don't want to hear about how the Bible says there's a giant rock in this particular place and the rock is right there in the real world. That doesn't prove your god exists. Fail.

2. "If you don't believe in God, you'll go to Hell!"

That's not evidence, it's an empty threat. Fail.

1. "You can't prove God doesn't exist!"

You're right, Mr. Christian, but guess what? I don't have to prove it doesn't exist. You have to prove it does exist. Burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. In absolutely no other avenue of life do we assume something exists because we can't prove it doesn't. I mean, you can't prove that bright pink, three-headed, flying, fire-breathing cows exist, so by your logic, that must mean they do exist. You can't prove you're not a murderer, so that must mean you are one. You can't prove I don't have a million dollars and date Jessica Alba, so that must mean I do. Yeah, that's not how the world works. Epic fail.

[duane1969]

Yet another thread with no other purpose than to stir up trouble, start an argument and be insulting towards others.

We get it, you hate Christians. Christianity is a joke. Christians are the bane of the Earth...blah, blah, blah, blah.

Get over it.

[gatorboymike]

That's what you always say. I know what you really mean, however. "You're just trying to offend people" = "I can't stand to hear any challenges to my beliefs because I know they won't stand up." I have the right to express my point of view, and the only people who find it offensive are people who consciously and deliberately set out to be offended by everything other than what they already believe. I think you are one of those people, and if you are determined to find things to be offended at, I can't help you.

[ensbergcollector]

That's what you always say. I know what you really mean, however. "You're just trying to offend people" = "I can't stand to hear any challenges to my beliefs because I know they won't stand up." I have the right to express my point of view, and the only people who find it offensive are people who consciously and deliberately set out to be offended by everything other than what they already believe. I think you are one of those people, and if you are determined to find things to be offended at, I can't help you.

says the man who can't handle the fact that anyone is a christian and gets angry and anyone for daring to be a christian. Here is why no one responds to you. If someone is not genuinely asking (i.e. honestly searching for an answer) then it is pointless to respond. You would never be open to anything that comes out of the mouth of a christian. you approach anything anyone says with a "how can I make them look stupid" attitude. as such, no answer given, even if correct, will do anything in regards to your attitude and approach.

[duane1969]

If I want to be offended then all I need to do is find one of your threads. However, I am finding all of these little attempts to toot your horn about how much you hate Christians to be a bit old and overdone. You need to find someone new to hate.

[gatorboymike]

By all means, suggest somebody else for me to hate.

[redskins21forever]

Geez.

[Joneser]

Whether or not Christians have evidence for the existence of their god is a talking point that comes up very frequently in discussions between them and atheists. Right now, I'd like to list off the most common responses I get from Christians when I ask them for such evidence.

10. "You know my God exists, you're just pretending to not believe in him so you can sin all you want because you hate God!"

I won't lie, I do love to sin. Sin = win. Irrespective, you can't hate something you don't believe in. "You know the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny exist, you just pretend you don't believe in them because you hate them and you want to keep all your baby teeth and chocolate eggs for yourself!" And while I think Richard Dawkins may be right when he calls Yahweh "the most unpleasant character in all of fiction," that doesn't inspire any more real-world hate than I have for the Wicked Witch of the West, Hannibal Lecter or Bowser from Super Mario. Do tell me, Mr. Christian, what exactly it is in my manner of speaking or acting that suggests to you that I really do believe in your god. If I really believed that there was a being out there that could read my thoughts and watch everything I ever did, that it had a special list of things it did and did not want me to do, and would commit me to either eternal reward or eternal torture based on how well I complied with said list of demands, I'm pretty sure I would be right there with you in that church, loudly offering praise to said being while breaking out in paranoid sweat. Oh, you can't point to anything I say or do that suggests I think that? You get that from some book? So the book knows me better than I know myself? Get outta here. Furthermore, even if I did really believe that, that still wouldn't count as evidence for your god, it would just mean I was as irrational and superstitious as you are. And, I could just turn the same argument around on you. You're only pretending not to believe in Allah/Krishna/Zeus/Oden/Thor/The Invisible Pink Unicorn because you hate it and just want to sin. Did that argument work on you? Then you know why yours didn't work on me. Fail.

9. "I prayed for X, and X happened!"

Well, if X was something you had no way of affecting, then X would have happened whether you prayed for it or not. If X was something you did or some accomplishment of yours, then you should be congratulating yourself, not god. Every religion claims their prayers are answered. This wouldn't be evidence of anything unless only Christians' prayers were answered, or Christians' prayers were answered at a rate that greatly exceeded the rate at which other religions' prayers were answered. And so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that is so. Do you think the sun wouldn't come up and that traffic lights wouldn't turn green unless you prayed for them? Do you think the world would explode unless you prayed for it? Well then have at it, hoss, because you're too far gone for me to reach. Fail.

8. "I wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for God!"

Oh really? How do you figure? Are you walking around with a mortal wound or some vital organ missing, yet somehow magically not dying? No, I'm betting this is going to turn into a "my incurable disease was cured" story. Furthermore, I'm betting your understanding of biology and medicine are not industry standard. And even at a professional level, doctors will admit we don't know everything about the human body's healing ability. You can claim it's really your god poking and prodding around in your half-liquified corpse, but I bet you have nothing to back that claim up. Show me a professional medical journal wherein the doctors who treated you say that somehow the laws of physics were defied and you made a recovery that was absolutely physically impossible. If that had happened, you'd probably be in some government laboratory right now being poked and prodded by scientists trying to figure out how you were healed rather than walking free and annoying atheists with spooky stories. Fail.

7. "Oh yeah? Well, if God doesn't exist, then where did you come from?"

Well, you see, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much...[BIRDS AND BEES]...and nine months later, I was born. Where did god enter into that equation? At what stage of the biological process of sexual reproduction is there a gap in human knowledge big enough to make a Yahweh sandwich out of? Fail.

6. "I feel God in my heart!"

Ah, no. No you don't. If you felt anything in your heart, you'd drop dead. The heart is a blood pump. That's all it does. It's not a sensory organ, it's not a spiritual repository, it's not a box for you to dump mysticism into, it's a blood pump. And surely, if god was in your heart, we could surgically remove your heart and find god in there. You'd die, of course, but you don't value this life or this world or anyone or anything in it anyway, and the sooner you get to that afterlife you have so much faith in (but no proof of), where everything REALLY matters, the better, right? And surely, if we could furnish medical proof of the Christian god's existence, that would convert millions and millions to Christianity. So how 'bout it? You want to donate that heart of yours for the cause? No? Then I guess you don't really feel god in there after all. Fail.

5. "This spooky story happened to me or somebody I know. God must have been behind it!"

So now you're asking me to put as much faith in you or somebody you know as you want me to put in your god? Why should I just assume this spooky story of yours is accurate? Now you must provide evidence that it's true. And I bet you can't. As Bart Ehrman said, a miracle is always the least likely explanation for anything. It's far more likely you don't fully understand what happened, you've been lied to, or you're just lying yourself. I don't take people's word on faith the way you do, and I never will. Trying that approach on me = fail.

4. "Oh yeah? Well, if God doesn't exist, then where did the universe come from?"

Nobody knows. I don't know, and neither do you. And don't try that line about how atheism and/or evolution is a faith-based belief that everything came from nothing. The only people who believe everything came from nothing are creationists. But we like to exercise Socratic ignorance here; that is, it's better to admit you don't know rather than pretend you do know when you really don't. And it's NOT true that any answer is better than no answer. Because if you just make something up and defend your made-up answer to the death, like Christians do, then you won't recognize or accept the actual answer when and if it is ever discovered. Just saying you know where the universe came from doesn't prove that you really know. And just saying we should just listen to your story because we don't know is invalid. Fail.

3. "The Bible proves God exists!"

No, the Bible is where the claim of god's existence is made. The claim and the proof can't come from the same source. The Bible can't be used to prove the Bible. And don't bother showing me where one part of the Bible says X is going to happen and another part that says X happened. Once again, the Bible can't be used to prove the Bible. You have to find an extrabiblical source to confirm what it says. And also, I don't want to hear about how the Bible says there's a giant rock in this particular place and the rock is right there in the real world. That doesn't prove your god exists. Fail.

2. "If you don't believe in God, you'll go to Hell!"

That's not evidence, it's an empty threat. Fail.

1. "You can't prove God doesn't exist!"

You're right, Mr. Christian, but guess what? I don't have to prove it doesn't exist. You have to prove it does exist. Burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. In absolutely no other avenue of life do we assume something exists because we can't prove it doesn't. I mean, you can't prove that bright pink, three-headed, flying, fire-breathing cows exist, so by your logic, that must mean they do exist. You can't prove you're not a murderer, so that must mean you are one. You can't prove I don't have a million dollars and date Jessica Alba, so that must mean I do. Yeah, that's not how the world works. Epic fail.

Amen

[redskins21forever]

fail.

[duane1969]

By all means, suggest somebody else for me to hate.