Why should I be expected to believe?

[duane1969]

If, as you imply, my mortal life is the equivalent to hanging off of a cliff. When is He going to offer me His hand? Why would I take the extended hand of what I perceive to be a 2 year old?

Obviously, if that is your perception, then you wouldn't. But that is your perception, which is not his fault.

[AUTaxMan]

where we are disconnecting is that i don't see it as unreasonable for God to not force someone to spend eternity with a God they refused to acknowledge or believe in. You see it as reasonable for god to welcome everyone regardless of the lives they live. that to me is unreasonable

I think a lot of people confuse God's justice with God's mercy and grace, but that is probably because they do not possess the core Christian belief that sin is, by its very nature, punishable by death (eternal death, that is, not mortal death).

[habsheaven]

where we are disconnecting is that i don't see it as unreasonable for God to not force someone to spend eternity with a God they refused to acknowledge or believe in. You see it as reasonable for god to welcome everyone regardless of the lives they live. that to me is unreasonable

No, I would think it reasonable for a God to welcome "one of His children" who lived a good life despite not believing.

Surely, a God would recognize the fact that a lot of good people are not going to believe the people He has chosen to represent Him, especially with the way many of His representatives act.

[habsheaven]

Obviously, if that is your perception, then you wouldn't. But that is your perception, which is not his fault.

Sure it is His fault. He must have the ability to extend a hand with something that looks more reassuring than a 2 year old, but He chooses not to.

[AUTaxMan]

Sure it is His fault. He must have the ability to extend a hand with something that looks more reassuring than a 2 year old, but He chooses not to.

Are you asking that faith not be required?

[Star_Cards]

i agree completely and already clarified that statement so there would be no confusion. sorry about that.

well not even specifically to you, that is a primary sentiment of religious peopel I have heard and know.

[habsheaven]

Are you asking that faith not be required?

Yes, I guess I am. Is that unreasonable?

[Star_Cards]

It is almost impossible for a Christian to convince an atheist of belief in God on the basis of logic. Arguments can be made that at the very least that it is just as logical to believe in God as it is not to believe in Him. Engaging in these arguments, though often entertaining, challenging, frustrating, and thought-provoking, however, is usually a Sisyphean task.

You should believe because it gives you hope and a purpose and changes lives for the better. It gives you a refuge in times of trouble. It allows you to never be alone or feel unloved. You should believe because of the joy it will bring your life and the lives of the people you love. I can say this, because I have witnessed it and experienced it myself. Experiencing that life is the best argument for why you should believe.

we'll definitely agree to disagree that arguments for is just a logical :)

I get that for some or a lot of people they need religion to have hope and purpose, but not everyone needs that and some need it at varying degrees. I can't really explain why but it just is. for myself I find hope and purpose and joy in my life being an atheist so it works for me. If others can't, that is perfectly okay.

[Star_Cards]

Yes, I guess I am. Is that unreasonable?

I don't think it is. There really aren't many other instances in life where people have blind faith in something or a faith that isn't tangible.

if I want someone to have faith in me then I build up that faith with positive experiences with them. I can't expect someone to have faith in me the first time I met them. for me personal experiences is what builds that.

[mrveggieman]

No, I would think it reasonable for a God to welcome "one of His children" who lived a good life despite not believing.

Surely, a God would recognize the fact that a lot of good people are not going to believe the people He has chosen to represent Him, especially with the way many of His representatives act.

Good point there are a lot of jerks posing as preachers fallwell, cain, robertson however the bible does say to be wary of false prophets. If you are ever serious about finding God (I know you said you wern't but if you are ever) look at the tebows of the world not the robertsons, bin ladens or herman cains. Personally I don't believe that god has sent any of them to represent him and they do all the evil they do out of the wickedness of their own hearts not by god's direction.

As far as God welcoming a non believer who lead an otherwise good life that is not my decision to make but the old saying is that if/when you go to heaven dont be surprised to see murderers, rapist, theives etc. So if all of God can forgive them as well as him being all knowing and all possible it is not beyond the realm of possibility that you could be forgiven. However I personally wouldn't take that chance. It's another old saying that goes something like this. It is better to live your life as like there is a god and die and find out there is not than to live your life like there is not and to die and find out there there is. I hope that helps you.