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09-22-2018, 11:58 PM #121
I know in your eyes, Winston is the greatest and you feel like you always have to defend him. All of those QBs have thrown for more yardage in a season, more TDs in a season, better completion percentage, etc. etc. etc. If I were building a team for the future, I would absolutely take Winston over those guys, except for Wentz. However, if I wanted to win now, I would take any of those guys before Winston. They are proven winners.
Wentz got his team to the playoffs and was set to have a better statistical season than Winston, by far. For example, 33 TDs to 7 INTs before the injury. Winston 19 TDs and 11 INTs. Brady 32 TDs to 8 INTs. Could continue with the other guys, but you get the picture. Yes, you can pick other stats and Winston would be better in some categories, but to dismiss those guys like Winston is the far superior QB, or even better than any of them shows your bias.
As far as his continued immaturity, he has had a history of sexual innuendos that got him in trouble at Florida State and that has continued to this point in the NFL with his most recent UBER incident. So, there is actually a track record or history of immature actions. It isn't like there is just one incident.
You are too funny
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09-23-2018, 04:05 AM #122
Ugh, really? Read through all my comments ... I have NEVER said anything remotely close to that. I'm harder on Jameis than the media is and view him accurately … it's always easy to say someone is a "homer" but if you actually look at my statements, you'll see that I am all about stats & hard data and not about emotionalism and homerism like most.
All of those QBs have thrown for more yardage in a season, more TDs in a season, better completion percentage, etc. etc. etc.
Um, you're just wrong. Wentz has NEVER even thrown for as many yards as Winston did in his rookie season, not has he ever had as high a completion percentage as Jameis had last year while playing half his games with an injured throwing shoulder. Even just last year, in what was obviously a magical season for Wentz and what some say was Jameis' worst season as it's the season he played hurt, Jameis bested Wentz in comp %, Y/A, NY/A and ANY/A.
As for the other guys … you do realize Jameis has played a whopping two full healthy years in the NFL, right? It's sort of silly to say he hasn't thrown for as many yards or TD's in a season as guys who have literally played close to 20 years! However, NONE of the guys you mentioned had ever thrown for as many yards or TDs as Jameis had, when they were Jameis age!
If I were building a team for the future, I would absolutely take Winston over those guys, except for Wentz. However, if I wanted to win now, I would take any of those guys before Winston. They are proven winners.
I wouldn't argue with that statement as it's very sensible and it would be silly to take a 24 year old over some of the all-time greats for one "win it all" season … I'd say the same thing about Wentz … I'd take Wentz over Tom Brady "going forward" but there's no way I'd take him over Brady to win one game right now.
Wentz got his team to the playoffs and was set to have a better statistical season than Winston, by far. For example, 33 TDs to 7 INTs before the injury. Winston 19 TDs and 11 INTs. Brady 32 TDs to 8 INTs. Could continue with the other guys, but you get the picture. Yes, you can pick other stats and Winston would be better in some categories, but to dismiss those guys like Winston is the far superior QB, or even better than any of them shows your bias.
You're putting words into my mouth. I have NEVER said anything remotely close to claiming that Jameis is currently a "better QB" than Brady/Rodgers/Brees … in fact, in all my on-line ratings, those guys are always ranked ahead of Jameis. Again, you may want to read all my comments instead of just assuming I'm biased for Jameis, as I'm not … I am stats and data driven and despise emotionalism … as such, I have an accurate picture of any and all QBs I research, including Jameis. I'm not some Buccaneers fan (I'm not even a Buccaneers fan, per se) who just thinks Jameis is the best at everything … in fact, I don't think he's "the best" at anything, not one single thing, yet … he's right near the top in throwing outside the pocket, in tight window throws, in pushing the ball down the field, in arm strength, but he's not "the best" in any single category yet … neither is Wentz … neither are most QBs.
As far as his continued immaturity, he has had a history of sexual innuendos that got him in trouble at Florida State and that has continued to this point in the NFL with his most recent UBER incident. So, there is actually a track record or history of immature actions. It isn't like there is just one incident.
The simple FACT is that Jameis has never even been arrested one time in his entire life, let alone ever been charged with a crime, let alone ever been convicted … everything serious related to him has always been nothing more than an unsubstantiated allegation … and the Uber thing is no different as there is zero actual "evidence" he ever did what he was accused of doing, and the recent developments (the driver changing her story for a third time, and now suing him civilly after she said that this had nothing to do with money previously) certainly make it seem like he's being railroaded.
Now, as for yelling an internet meme, sure, he did that, but no one cares … it's the serious allegations everyone cares about and the ones people simply choose to believe he did, even though there's never been any evidence he did them, and he's never even been arrested or charged for them, let alone convicted. I imagine that should bother anyone who isn't infected with "Winston Derangement Syndrome".
You are too funny
I've never been called "funny" before really, but many people do seem think I'm far too knowledgeable for my own good, as they literally seem to have mental breakdowns when I start throwing stats at them … I mean, when the statistician for the Tampa Bay Times can't handle a simple statistical debate with me, without melting down and acting like a crazy person, I don't think "humor" is my issue, I think logic and reason and non-emotional, fact-based arguments are my issue …
In closing, I challenge you or anyone else to find even one inaccurate statement I've made about Jameis in this thread … all of my stats are accurate, and I don't make silly statements like "Jameis is the best" or try to prove points with emotional nonsense … and that bothers people because they know they can't call me biased or a homer without lying … though some do so anyways which is a shame.
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09-23-2018, 10:41 AM #123
You state that you never claimed Winston is a better QB than the other guys. Is that not what you were insinuating with your
"ONLY ONE QB in the entire NFL was recently ranked by ESPN NFL Analyst and Assistant Editor Scott Kascmar of FootballOutsiders.com as one of the TOP 3 QBs in the entire NFL in the "Most Valuable", "Most Aggressive" AND "Most Accurate" categories ...
Aaron Rodgers? Nope
Tom Brady? Nope
Drew Brees? Nope
Carson Wentz? Nope
JAMEIS WINSTON? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT!??????????????????
Personally, I'd put Rodgers in the top 3 of all 3 categories as well, but that's it as there's no way Wentz would even be top 10 in "most valuable to his team" or "most accurate" and there's no way Brady would even be top 10 in "most aggressive".????????????????
You didn't say it verbatim but that is certainly what you are implying. Your use of stats is always very impressive, but there is only one problem. You only use certain stats to attempt to validate your points while completely ignoring others. Perhaps it is that certain stats are important to you and others are not. I know that is certainly true with me. While completion percentage, Y/A, etc..... that you mention are telling stats, I believe that TD/INT ratio is a very important one. Anything greater than a 2 to 1 is a decent QB. In Winston's 3 seasons, he has always been lower (22/15, 28/18, 19/11). Also very important is QBR! Winston (84.2, 86.1, 92.2). Brady hasn't had a QBR that low in one season in over 10 years (can't count the 2008 season when he got injured for the season in Game 1). You mention completion percentage. Brees at 72% last year!
Mentioning Wentz and the Super Bowl. Wentz played 13 games and so did Winston last year, so let us compare. Winston threw for around 200 more yds, slightly better completion pert. @ 63.8 to 60.2. You would think, Winston is the better QB. However, here is where the big difference comes in: 33 TDs/7 INTs for Wentz. Winston 19 TDs/11 INTs, which obviously leans the QBR also in Wentz's favor 102 to 92. Wentz is the MVP of the Eagles and did get them to the Super Bowl. There is no way Nick Foles is having the regular season Wentz did. Without what he did during the regular season, someone else is winning the Super Bowl last year. PERIOD! So, yes, he did take them to the Super Bowl. Foles had a great post season hot streak and should be commended but Wentz is a far superior QB to Foles. As you know, I am a Cowboys fan.
I think most people go into orbit debating with you or whatever they do because you don't really listen to what they are saying. You simply spin the stats in your favor to prove whatever your point is about Winston. I get that!!! He is your guy and I do the same for Emmitt. However, most people don't like to have a debate with all you do is break down the entire conversation, throw certain stats in while ignoring other stats.
Here is an example of what you do, except I will do it to show Winston isn't good. Winston isn't even a top 10 quarterback in the leagues based off of his QBR. In 2017, he was ranked 14th in the league with an overall QBR of 92.2. Those are factual statistics and in the opinion of most, it is the single most telling stat (attempts, completion, yards, TDs, INTs).
It is good to have a discussion, but I don't have time for you to break down every sentence and counter that. Take care.
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09-23-2018, 01:19 PM #124
No, that is certainly not what I was doing at all. In fact, I already publicly posted my QB ratings on Twitter and had Jameis ranked behind all of those guys. I was merely pointing out an ESPN article that I found interesting, which talked about Jameis, obviously.
Personally, I'd put Rodgers in the top 3 of all 3 categories as well, but that's it as there's no way Wentz would even be top 10 in "most valuable to his team" or "most accurate" and there's no way Brady would even be top 10 in "most aggressive".????????????????
I stand by the above statement 100% and would challenge anyone to prove such a statement wrong with hard data.
You didn't say it verbatim but that is certainly what you are implying.
No, that is not at all what I was implying. If I were trying to imply Jameis was a "better QB" than all of those guys I certainly would not have noted that I personally disagreed with the author and would have also ranked Aaron Rodgers in the top 3 in all those categories. I think it's quite clear that I was merely mentioning an article that talked about Jameis and commenting on it, while also disagreeing with the author and giving props to Aaron Rodgers that the author failed tp give.
There are some statements of facts that are obvious, yet do not insinuate that one QB is a "better QB" than another. For example, it is a fact that Jameis has a bigger arm than Tom Brady but that Josh Allen has a bigger arm than Jameis, yet I would "rank" just those three QBs: Brady, Jameis, Allen. Likewise it is a fact that Sam Darnold is more athletic than Jameis but less athletic than Lamar Jackson, but I would "rank" those 3: Jameis, Darnold, Jackson.
Believe me, if I thought and wanted to prove that Jameis is a better QB than Brady, Brees & Rodgers right now, I would certainly write an article saying such and using stats to back it up … I don't think that, the stats don't show that and therefore I don't even "insinuate" that.
Your use of stats is always very impressive, but there is only one problem. You only use certain stats to attempt to validate your points while completely ignoring others.
That is completely untrue. I have various stat graphics I use, all of which show different things, so for example, an age-related, yards & TDs stats will show just that, age-related yard and TD totals, while a "through 45 games stat" will show that, etc. I could certainly twist stats to always have Jameis ranked at the top of each list, but I don't do that. For example, Peyton Manning has both more yards and TDs through 45 games, while Jameis has a better passer rating and a better TD over INT number and my stats show all of those things to be true. Likewise, my 2017 stats incorporate ALL 11 of the individual QB stats listed on pro-football-reference.com and don't leave a single one out, so when I compare Jameis to Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson, it shows that while Jameis bested both of those guys in 6/11 categories, they also bested him in 5/11 categories.
The above is why I've never lost a statistical-based debate in Twitter, whether I was debating the Tampa Bay Times statistician, or ESPN's Bill Barnwell, or Bleacher Report's Jason Cole, or even the former CEO of the Cleveland Browns, Joe Banner … my stats are both 100% accurate as well as relevant and no one has any comebacks for them … so … you can pretend that my stats are slanted but that simply isn't the case.
Perhaps it is that certain stats are important to you and others are not. I know that is certainly true with me.
Such as? Again, my 2017 research and stat graphs incorporate ALL ELEVEN on the "individual QB stats" so I'm not missing anything in those ...
While completion percentage, Y/A, etc..... that you mention are telling stats, I believe that TD/INT ratio is a very important one. Anything greater than a 2 to 1 is a decent QB. In Winston's 3 seasons, he has always been lower (22/15, 28/18, 19/11). Also very important is QBR! Winston (84.2, 86.1, 92.2). Brady hasn't had a QBR that low in one season in over 10 years (can't count the 2008 season when he got injured for the season in Game 1). You mention completion percentage. Brees at 72% last year!
ALL of the above stats are part of my 2017 graphs … by the way, you don't understand QBR as you mentioned it but then posted Jameis' passer rating numbers, which are entirely different than QBR.
In regards to Brady, you're right "prime Brady" has been better than 21-23 year old Jameis and I would never argue otherwise … I would say however that Brady never topped Jameis 23 year old passer rating, until his 5th season in the NFL and that even after that, his passer rating fell below Jameis' 23 year old passer rating in Brady's 7th and 9th seasons.
As for TD/INT ratio … I prefer to focus on actual Turnover % and while it's shocking, the fact is that Brady had a worse to % than Jameis through his first 3 years … in regards to just pure TD/Int ratio, I think it can be important but that apples should be measured against apples rather than oranges and what I mean by that is that young gunslingers should be measured against young gunslingers, prime QBs against prime QBs and game-managers against game-managers … no one cares that game-manager Chad Pennington had a better TD/INT ratio than HOF gunslinger Brett Favre and likewise it shouldn't surprise anyone that a modern game-manager like Alex Smith or Dak Prescott has a better TD/INT ratio than gunslingers like Roetlisberger and Jameis.
As for pure completion percentage … that is also covered in my 2017 stats … and Drew Brees is the best in the business so I would never say otherwise.
Mentioning Wentz and the Super Bowl. Wentz played 13 games and so did Winston last year, so let us compare. Winston threw for around 200 more yds, slightly better completion pert. @ 63.8 to 60.2.
Firstly Jameis did NOT play 13 games, he played 11 games and one quarter plus of two other games … he easily was #1 in the entire NFL in yards per game when that is understood … and 63.8% to 60.2% is NOT "slightly better", it's a lot better, especially when one considers Jameis throws tight-window, into coverage throws a ton and never really got to throw out of play-action to wide open receivers like Wentz does, as Jameis had no run game support to speak of.
You would think, Winston is the better QB.
No, only a goofball would just look at a mere two stats and then judge whether one QB is better than another … if just two stats are used, one could make a marvelous case that Jay Cutler is better than John Elway was … don't be silly.
However, here is where the big difference comes in: 33 TDs/7 INTs for Wentz. Winston 19 TDs/11 INTs, which obviously leans the QBR also in Wentz's favor 102 to 92.
Again,you're quoting passer rating numbers, not QBR, they aren't the same though many fans think they are … QBR takes things like fumbles into account, as well as many other things, where passer rating does not …
Wentz is the MVP of the Eagles and did get them to the Super Bowl.
No, he did NOT get them to the SB … he helped get them a #1 seed but he didn't play a single playoff game, so there's no way you can say he got them to the SB with a straight face.
There is no way Nick Foles is having the regular season Wentz did. Without what he did during the regular season, someone else is winning the Super Bowl last year. PERIOD! So, yes, he did take them to the Super Bowl. Foles had a great post season hot streak and should be commended but Wentz is a far superior QB to Foles. As you know, I am a Cowboys fan.
I agree Wentz is far superior to Foles but disagree with everything else you said … Wentz helped get them a #1 seed … he had NOTHING to do with them getting to the SB once the playoffs started, let alone winning the SB.
I think most people go into orbit debating with you or whatever they do because you don't really listen to what they are saying. You simply spin the stats in your favor to prove whatever your point is about Winston. I get that!!! He is your guy and I do the same for Emmitt. However, most people don't like to have a debate with all you do is break down the entire conversation, throw certain stats in while ignoring other stats.
Incorrect and I take it you've never followed one of my Twitter debates … I don't ignore anything and never ignore any point one makes to me … if someone brings up a point, I deal with it, I never just ignore it. I also don't spin the stats, if I did I would easily lose debates as it's easy to win a debate against someone spinning stats. Likewise, I have had some very good debates with no-name Twitter guys who don't have "Winston Derangement Syndrome".
The above said, the reason people go crazy when debating with me, is definitely NOT because I don't listen to them, as I deal with every single objection or stat they throw out, it's often because they have "Winston Derangement Syndrome" and simply can't seem to wrap their mind around Jameis being anything other than a bust or the second coming of Jamarcus Russell … it's so very silly.
Here is an example of what you do, except I will do it to show Winston isn't good. Winston isn't even a top 10 quarterback in the leagues based off of his QBR. In 2017, he was ranked 14th in the league with an overall QBR of 92.2. Those are factual statistics and in the opinion of most, it is the single most telling stat (attempts, completion, yards, TDs, INTs).
Again, I incorporate QBR into my 2017 stat graphs and again, you don't understand what QBR is, as you're still quoting his passer rating rather than his QBR … and as I said above, using one or even two mere stats to rank QBs is insane, which is why my 2017 rankings and stat graphs were based on ALL ELEVEN of the individual QB stats … no one can legitimately argue with them.
What you just did is just silly … it'd be like me using ONLY YPG to say Dak is the worst QB in the entire NFL or ONLY YPA to say that Eli Manning is the worst or whatever … that would be insane and certainly isn't even close to what I do as I incorporated every single one of the 11 individual statistical categories into my research.
By the way, a 23 year old QB playing behind a bad O-Line, with no run support AND playing half his games with an injured throwing shoulder, ranking #14 in the league in passer rating, is actually quite awesome … Baker Mayfield is 23 right now, if he jacks his throwing shoulder and his line and run game fall apart and he ranks 14th at the end of the year, I will be very, very impressed with him.
It is good to have a discussion, but I don't have time for you to break down every sentence and counter that. Take care.
No worries, I appreciate your comments and I personally enjoying breaking down every sentence and countering point by point … but I also don't mind you or others pulling "hit and runs" as I still like to read your comments and will have fun replying to them, even if you never reply to my reply :-)
Have a great weekend!
Last edited by Jameis1of1; 09-23-2018 at 02:16 PM.
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09-25-2018, 07:59 AM #125
Well.... does he get the start next week? If game ready i think he does.
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09-25-2018, 08:25 AM #126Football Advisor
I agree with Jameis1of1 iirc. Given how well the Bears defense has been playing and that the Bucs will be on the road, I think it makes sense to keep going with Fitzpatrick another week. After that they are on a bye week 5, so it'll give Winston nearly 2 weeks of prep with the first team to get synced up. Now if the Buccaneers are able to move the offense against the Bears who are playing unbelievable defense right now, perhaps they keep riding the hot hand and split practice time between their two QBs.
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09-25-2018, 10:57 AM #127
If Winston isn't given the job immediately, he looks bad... even if he's "the most statistically accomplished QB for his age."
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09-25-2018, 05:35 PM #128
Ryan Fitzpatrick will be given another week if I was the coach. He basically gave the Steelers a gift 10 points last night with the Interception that the Bucs D held and turned into a FG and the one that was returned for a Pick 6. Until the offense struggled for an entire game and looks defeated, he should be the starter. I'll make a prediction now though. If they are losing by at least 14 at the half or shutout in the first half next game, Jameis will be playing.
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09-25-2018, 05:48 PM #129
You win, Jameis is the best! Thank you for pointing out my statistical error about QBR. Jameis was actually 18th. So, you point out an article about someone stating that Jameis is the best, but you disagreed and are not implying at all that he is. Okay! My education in psychology actually states that by merely mentioning an article stating he is the best means you are in fact implying that he is the best. That coupled with your username pretty much solidifies it! I respect your passion and support for Winston. I just don't have the time to reply to every sentence and breakdown items to prove he isn't the best. Therefore, I concede since I can also tell you are a person that never loses a discussion because you always have to have the last word.
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09-25-2018, 10:48 PM #130
There you go again putting words in my mouth … I don't even rank Jameis in the top 8 QBs and never have to date, so you're statement is silly and what is referred to as a "strawman argument" … you pretend I say something I never said and then debate against that non-statement … again, it's all very silly.
Thank you for pointing out my statistical error about QBR. Jameis was actually 18th.
Do you understand there is a big difference between passer rating & QBR now? I see a lot of people mistake the two but they are not at all the same stat.
So, you point out an article about someone stating that Jameis is the best, but you disagreed and are not implying at all that he is. Okay!
Did you read the article? It does NOT state Jameis Winston is the best QB, not even close … I don't know if you just specialize in setting up and then knocking down strawman arguments, or if you simply didn't read the article and have no idea what it said, or if you simply did read it but didn't understand it, but again, you keep debating things that were never said and it's very silly.
My education in psychology actually states that by merely mentioning an article stating he is the best means you are in fact implying that he is the best.
Firstly, the article did NOT state Jameis is the best QB, and one doesn't need an education in psychology to read and take the author at face value, one simply needs some basic reading comprehension which I'm sure you have and which makes it extremely strange the you continue to purposely misrepresent both the author's words, as well as my statements ...
By your logic, anyone that quotes an article, even if one specifically states that he or she disagrees with part of that article, most be judged to actually agree with every word of the article … that is patently absurd. In this thread I have referenced many talking heads and articles that were anti-Jameis … does that mean I agreed with them? Of course not. This is not a hard concept to understand at all.
That coupled with your username pretty much solidifies it!
Really? My username isn't "#1WinstonFan", it's "Jameis1of1" as I collect/invest in ONLY true 1/1 rookie cards of Jameis … I'm not even a Bucs fan, don't like Florida State at all, etc., … you're being really silly … and you're starting to sound like some of the trolls that contact me on Twitter, as when they can't refute anything I say they'll say, "well, look at your name, you must be a fanboy" … it's all very childish. I am not a fan of any "team" in the NFL per se, like a lot of different players including Jameis, Darnold, Josh Allen, Roethlisberger, Gurley, Stafford, Saquon, etc., and am certainly not a fanboy/girl of anyone other than Jesus Christ of Nazareth and certainly not any mere football player.
]quote]I respect your passion and support for Winston. I just don't have the time to reply to every sentence and breakdown items to prove he isn't the best.[/quote]
It would be weird if you even tried since I've never claimed he was "the best" … or even close to it. What I do claim are irrefutable facts, backed by hard data which is why I never lose a debate to anyone … no one should lose a debate when they have all the evidence on their side.
Therefore, I concede since I can also tell you are a person that never loses a discussion because you always have to have the last word.
No one should ever lose a debate … one should only debate if they have the evidence on their side, and if they don't, they shouldn't even bother engaging in a debate as losing is inevitable. Now, if you're talking about debating mere "opinions" that have nothing to do with facts, anyone can win or lose those debates as they're just fun and also rather pointless … for example, it is my "opinion" that Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" is the greatest novel ever written, that 2Pac is the greatest rap-artist of all-time, that Whitney Houston is the greatest singer of all-time, that mint chocolate chip is the best flavor of ice cream, etc., … but I can't prove any of that as none of it is based on hard data, it's just an opinion and I could easily lose a debate to someone arguing for another novel, rap-artist, singer, ice cream flavor, etc.
As for having the "last word" … I've always enjoyed answering every question asked of me, or point raised in a discussion, and continue to enjoy doing so, but I've certainly let others have the last word in Twitter debates when they've signed off with something like "I concede" or "Thanks for your time, it was fun" ...
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