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10-30-2018, 02:20 PM #171
I'm sad I'm not your favorite troll. I will try harder! LOL. You're right, they are a stat. An important stat. All 4 of them were his fault. Terrible decisions. As for me, I've told you before that I would give Jameis recognition when he does something worthy of recognition. I don't think that has changed through 8 weeks. If anything, he's worse. He was Nathan Peterman like on Sunday. Can he rack up yards, yea sure. Who cares. Can he make the right decisions to win games, nope. Until this changes, he will NEVER be looked at as a top QB.
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10-30-2018, 09:47 PM #172
Amen! All one has to do is look at the "season leader in interceptions thrown" lists since the NFL began and they will see that those are listed are LOADED WITH HALL OF FAME QB's … the media fell in love with Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady and now spin the narrative that the most important thing a QB can do is "manage a game" and not turn the ball over … the only problem with that is that almost every single HOF QB was a turnover machine for a large portion of their careers, especially in their younger years, because their coaches wanted them slinging the ball and when you sling the ball interceptions are bound to happen … no coach wants a "game manager" QB … if they are stuck with one, they will ask their GM to build up the defense and ground game to make things easier on the QB and to keep games low scoring, but every coach and GM worth their salt actually wants a true gunslinger at the QB position ...
Gotta up your troll game son. For example, did you know Jameis Winston has had as many multi-interception games as Blake Bortles since 2015? That's a troll job done right.
Yeah, that's some quality trolling I can appreciate, lol … however, honestly even stats like those don't bother me at all … check out a graphic from some years back and notice how three of the four QBs on it for "most multi-interception games" are obvious HOF'ers and the other guy turned into an MVP candidate in his later years … again, gunslingers sling … it's what they do.
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I don't consider you a troll … I mean, you do troll and seem to like to do so from time to time, but you also have presented solid stats in the past and at least attempt to make some logical arguments which I can respect … the other guys is "only" a troll … you don't want to be in the same class as he is, LOL
You're right, they are a stat. An important stat. All 4 of them were his fault. Terrible decisions.
I wouldn't agree with your latter statement as the 1st pick Mike Evans specifically blamed himself and said he felt terrible for letting Jameis down and that he simply mistimed his jump and the pick should have actually been a TD … and the 2nd one was tipped by the defender … and the 4th seemed to be a miscommunication with Humphries on a slant route … the 3rd was ugly and all on Jameis as the ball totally sailed on him though, and regardless, he was "off" that game, period … yes, he still totalled 294 yards in just 3 quarters but he was off, there's no doubt about it.
As for me, I've told you before that I would give Jameis recognition when he does something worthy of recognition.
2 weeks ago in his first start of the year he put up 425 yards and 4 TDs and last week he was the ONLY QB in the NFL to win a game while also totalling over 400 yards and having to lead his team in rushing … Jameis balls out every game, he's just wild and refuses to "live for another down" and that leads to turnovers … Favre 2.0 … his problem is that he cares too much and tries too hard, he needs to realize that you can lose battles to win a war, rather than thinking he needs to win every battle to win a war … he treats throw-aways and taking sacks like a cancer when at times those two things can be the best thing a QB can do as it gives them another down … we'll see if he ever learns his lesson or if he will always be like Favre and NEVER learn that lesson … but either way, I'm not worried in the least about his future.
I don't think that has changed through 8 weeks. If anything, he's worse. He was Nathan Peterman like on Sunday.
I do think he's pressing more this season than he did last season … he only threw 8 picks in his first 12 starts last season … but no, Jameis is incapable of playing like Peterman, and him racking up 294 yards in 3 quarters is proof of that. He's a gunslinger that can move the ball down the field at an elite level … he just likes to play hero ball way too much … part of me thinks his wild success as a 19 year old in college actually was the worst thing for his NFL career, as he was so dominant that year that I think it made him trust his arm even more than he should and think he can make every throw at any time, no matter what the defense shows, and that leads to TO's in the NFL, just ask Favre and a young Peyton Manning who threw ONE HUNDRED INTERCEPTIONS in just his first 5 years before turning into one of the most efficient QBs in NFL history later in his career.
Can he rack up yards, yea sure. Who cares.
Coaches, GMs and players care, as yards lead to points which leads to wins … a team that wins with a QB that struggles to get 180 yards in a game is winning in spite of their QB not because of him … every coach and GM wants a QB that can go get you 250+ yards game in and game out … and Jameis can get you 400 yards game in and game out.
Can he make the right decisions to win games, nope. Until this changes, he will NEVER be looked at as a top QB.
He took a Tampa team with a bad defense, bad O-Line and no run game to speak of to 2nd place and beating out Drew Brees' Saints and Matt Ryan's Falcons as a 22 year old, only missing the playoffs on a tie-breaker … and we all know he went 26-1 in college … he's also always been known to be extremely clutch dating back to his high school days and even through last season, when despite the team's poor record, he gave them late 4th quarter leads in 4 different games, that the defense then gave right back at the end … no young QB "wins" consistently when he has no run game, the league's worst defense and a below average O-Line.
I agree he's not viewed as an elite QB at present, but he's absolutely still viewed as an elite talent, we'll see what he does with that talent when all is said and done.
However, while everyone's killing Jameis for playing so far below his capabilities (because they know what an elite talent he is), did you know that RIGHT NOW, even after his horrendous 10 picks, even when he's been at his worst, he's still 15th in the entire NFL in QBR, ahead of Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Matt Stafford, DeShaun Watson, Dak, etc? That just goes to show how much people expect from Jameis; they expect MVP level play and if he doesn't provide it, they bash him for it … it's been that way since Day 1 … heck it's been that way since he was 19 years old at Florida State … people were killing him after his one and only collegiate loss and then killing him again after his very first game as a pro … he didn't get a single game "grace period" … I mean, I LOVE Sam "White Jameis" Darnold as everyone knows, but if you compare his rookie stats so far to Jameis' rookie year stats you'll easily see that Jameis bests him in nearly every single statistical category and advanced metric including: QBR, passer rating, comp %, INT %, Y/G, Y/C, Y/A, AY/A, NY/A and ANY/A and Jameis put up those far superior numbers in 2015 when the league's passing stats were nowhere near as high as they are this year … but … the media fawns over Darnold and has not turned on him in the least, despite him playing in a mega media market … I know people don't like to hear it, but it's so blatantly obvious that the media and even most fans decided before Jameis was even drafted that he would play the roll of villain, or "heel" if you will to borrow a wrestling term, and the media waits with bated breath to write hit pieces on him when he plays poorly … it is what it is but it's so extremely obvious too … it reminds me of how Randall Cunningham, Ray Lewis, Randy Moss, Mike Tyson, Darryl Strawberry, Eric Lindros, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson and other obviously extremely gifted athletes who the media decided were to play the role of the villain, were treated at different times during their careers … but again, it is what it is and if Jameis wants to change it, he'll likely have to either win a ring or earn a gold jacket … we'll see what happens.Last edited by Jameis1of1; 10-31-2018 at 06:36 AM.
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11-03-2018, 01:13 AM #173
I actually agree with this. They were scared that Jameis would regress if dirk got recruited away from the bucs. So they fired Lovie and promoted dirk.
I think that Winston is going to be a good QB I still cant wrap my head around the possibility of him being a bust. Fitzmagik owns Tampa right now, I live in Orlando and the whole central FL area is excited to get more of the Magik man. I am myself really glad to se Fitzmagik back in the guy played the best first 3 games in history then got benched in the bears game and Jameis came in and played worse. In the 3 weeks Winston has been the starter he has lost the team. Fitzmagik just commands a different level of respect and plays the game with a passion I just dont feel with Winston.
Thats a no brainer thank god! The Tampa Bay offense is uber talented and if the D keeps the games within 8 points the bucs can win any game.
I see Holly comparing Jameis to Favre. Winston might want to play like Favre but he is not packing anywhere near the arm Strength Favre had. Thats why he cant make the throws favre made. Also Favre commanded a level of respect that Winston might never get.
With Fitzmagik starting in tampa its going to be electric
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11-04-2018, 04:21 AM #174
^ I agree with some of your statements and disagree with others. For example, when Jameis replaced Fitz in the Bears game, he played better than Fitz had … then Jameis put up back to back 420+ total yard games in the next two, the first with 4 TDs and the 2nd where he was the ONLY QB in the NFL that week to have 400+ total yards and lead his team in rushing and still win the game … then he played bad in Cinncy and deserved to get benched, but in the last two first halves Fitz has been the starting QB, the Bucs have been outscored 68-10 and Fitz threw 1 TD, 4 INTs and fumbled as well. The team had no energy and just got obliterated with Fitz starting his last two games …
As for "commanding respect" … I don't see that with Fitz and don't see that missing with Jameis … I don't think any team Jameis has ever played on in his life has been outscored 68-10 in back to back first halfs as the team has been in Fitz's last 2 starts … I also listen to the postgame interviews and hear how much his teammates love Jameis and feel bad for not making plays for him.
Now, as for Favre … I've said it many times but the simple fact is that Favre had accomplished nothing compared to what Winston has accomplished, at the same age … Jameis certainly isn't on "prime Favre's" level yet, but at Jameis' current age, Favre wasn't close to on his level … through his 24 year old season (and Jameis will still be 24 when this regular season ends) Favre had 37 TD passes to 39 INTs and 39 total TDs to 60 total turnovers … yes, I'm serious. Jameis on the other hand has 75 TD passes and 54 INTs as well as 84 TDs and 73 TOs … so Favre was a -2 in TD/INTs while Jameis is a +21 and Favre was a -21 in total TDs to total TOs while Jameis is a +11 …
As for whether Jameis will ever command the same respect as Favre … we'll see, but Jameis went 26-1 in college and won a title and then had the Bucs on the brink of the playoffs as a 22 year old (an age when Favre was a 3rd stronger, behind Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver … and then traded by the Falcons who didn't believe in his future) and his GM, who worked with Brady, said Jameis is a better natural leader than Brady, so … again, we'll see.
As for Jameis not being able to make the same throws Favre made … I'd say it's an irrefutable fact that Favre has a bigger arm than Jameis, but Jameis does have elite arm talent … Favre's was even better, but they both have top level arm talent … also, while I'd say there are a few "tight windows" Favre could hit that Jameis can't, Jameis has more athleticism and strength than Favre, so while there are some "throws" Favre could make that Jameis wouldn't be able to make, there are many "plays" that Jameis has made that Favre would not have been able to make as well.
Now, don't get it twisted, I'm not in any way bashing Favre or saying Jameis will end up higher on the GOAT list than Brett … everyone who knows me knows I LOVE Favre and he's my favorite retired QB of all time … it just irks me a bit when people act like it's impossible for any young player to ever equal or surpass a legend … I mean, can you imagine someone saying when Favre was 24 years old, with his 39 TDs and 60 Turnovers that he would end up being better than Terry Bradshaw or Fran Tarkenton when his career ended … that person would have been laughed at like crazy, but by the time Favre hung em up, he was indeed worthy of being ranked higher than both those all-time legends.Last edited by Jameis1of1; 11-04-2018 at 04:26 AM.
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11-04-2018, 09:15 AM #175
Could we quit using age to compare Winston's stats to other QBs that played years ago? You can say his stats were better and yes, he does have more yardage, TDs, etc...... However, those older QBs stayed for 4 years of college and Winston did not. Therefore, of course he has more TDs, etc.... because he has played for more years in the NFL. It has nothing to do with his ability and being a better QB!!!
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11-04-2018, 09:42 AM #176
Also wanted to address the Fitz comments. The Bucs coach made a horrible decision benching him after one bad half against the Bears. Prior to that game, he had thrown for 400+ yards in 3 straight games to start the season (which I believe is an NFL record)!!!! He has one bad half and Jameis comes in! I mean, really? That decision divided the team and now Winston left him no choice with his sub par performance since he has returned with 6 TDs and 10 INTs.
Who cares that Jameis was awesome and a winner in college. So was Tim Tebow and so many other great collegiate players that couldn't make the transition to the NFL. I'm not saying that Jameis hasn't made the transition. Jameis just refuses to learn from his mistakes and makes off balance fade away throws that get intercepted. There is a difference between trying to force something into a tight window and it getting picked than to not having your feet set properly and throw it up in the air making an easy pick.
Jameis has all the athleticism and a really good arm, as well as the potential to be a great QB. He just doesn't learn or progress in his decision making and that is really what it holding him back. I see him making the same bad decisions and throws he made when he was a rookie. So, great you throw for 400+ yards but throw more picks than TDs. Going to be hard to win games that way.
Also, I disagree with the support from the team comment regarding Fitz. DeSean Jackson and Mike Evans were thriving under Fitz. Winston comes back and after 2 games, Jax wants to get traded!!! He wanted to get traded after Winston came back because ???? I do remember the Evans comments supporting Winston, but he did that for Fitz as well. So, I am not arguing that they support Fitz but not Winston. What I am saying, is that I don't believe it is one sided. The team seems to support both.
I have never seen a back and forth starting QB carousel like this, so it will be interesting. I personally don't think it is good for team morale to keep doing it though!
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11-04-2018, 11:16 AM #177Football Advisor
Bears defense was playing at an elite level at the first quarter of the season. No one was going to have a good game. Winston had a highly efficient game the second half but it was garbage time at that point. It was 45-3 when Winston tossed a TD. Scroll towards the bottom for the game log.
Certainly no Patrick Mahomes in that regard. Have you seen the way he and still throw laser beams? I think lots of coaches prize good mechanics because it leads to consistent results but there are some players out there who play great with what looks like sloppy mechanics. All depends on how the QB operates. I can't speak to whether Winston is one of those guys, I don't watch him enough and mostly keep up with box scores and post game analysis.
D-Jax comments check out. Though to be fair, he may not have ever really been all in with Winston.
As a Chicago Bears fan, I used to think the carousel of quarterbacking was normal!
I'd agree with that. There is no taking away Winston's statistical accomplishments for his age but until his whole career is written it doesn't hold much than "that's an interesting fact" for me. It does certainly show he's succeeding in his first four years in the NFL but whether he's doing it as 24 or 27 isn't germane to me. For example Aaron Rodgers was 25 during his first starting season in the NFL. I'd take his four starting years over Winston's. I take it for what it is - an interesting factoid and proving statistical success at a young age but not a complete picture.
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11-04-2018, 07:22 PM #178
We've been over this and you're just flat out wrong as I have proven before … Fran Tarkenton came into the NFL at 21 just like Jameis, way back in the 1960s … MANY, MANY other QBs did as well. I also pointed out how Emmitt Smith started his first game at an even younger age than Jameis did, but you are not going to downplay Emmitt's career stats because he started young … stop trolling, it's silly.
People used to freak out on me when I did the same "age based" stat break downs with Kobe Bryant compared to other HOF greats … but what happened, Kobe retired #3 on the all-time scoring list and topped Kobe, Drexler, Havlicek, Dr. J, etc … and barring serious injury I do believe Jameis will retire near the top of the all-time career yards & TD lists, due "in part" to being so good at such a young age, the same way Emmitt Smith's career rushing record is due "in part" to also racking up numbers at an even younger age than Jameis!
Also, I have stated over and over and over, and yet you still seem to not be able to understand, that the stats I quote are mere irrefutable FACTS, they are not "opinions" that Jameis is "better" than all the QBs that came before him, merely that he has accomplished more than all of them before the age of 24 … there is nothing for you to disagree with therefore and it always come off as strange that you rage against such obvious facts … it'd be like me freaking out if someone on this forum used some factual stats to show that Saquon Barkley is more accomplished through his first 8 games than Marshall Faulk was … factual stats never bother me … and they should never bother you either.
Also wanted to address the Fitz comments. The Bucs coach made a horrible decision benching him after one bad half against the Bears. Prior to that game, he had thrown for 400+ yards in 3 straight games to start the season (which I believe is an NFL record)!!!! He has one bad half and Jameis comes in! I mean, really? That decision divided the team and now Winston left him no choice with his sub par performance since he has returned with 6 TDs and 10 INTs.
Again, as I said yesterday, in the last 2 first halves Fitz played the Bucs were outscored 68-10 and he had thrown 1 TD with 4 INTs … the Bucs never planned to start Fitz past the Bears game anyways and he deserved to get benched.
By the way, now, with today's game over, the last 3 first halves Fitz has started in the Bucs have been outscored 103-24 with Fitz throwing 3 TDs and 5 INTs … the simple fact that Koetter doesn't seem to want to admit is that the "team" sucks, the defense is historically bad and even if they had Tom Brady, they'd still get smoked by quality teams … the Bucs are just a bad "football team".
As for Jameis' last 3 first halves … the team was outscored 53-38, so while the team was a -15 or an average of being down 5 points at half-time in Jameis last 3 starts, they are now a - 79 or an average of being down by 26.3 points at half-time in Ryan Fitzpatrick's last 3 starts ...
Who cares that Jameis was awesome and a winner in college. So was Tim Tebow and so many other great collegiate players that couldn't make the transition to the NFL. I'm not saying that Jameis hasn't made the transition. Jameis just refuses to learn from his mistakes and makes off balance fade away throws that get intercepted. There is a difference between trying to force something into a tight window and it getting picked than to not having your feet set properly and throw it up in the air making an easy pick.
I'm, not sure what you're referring to as it's not like Jameis plays like Cam Newton, who throws TONS of passes fading back, off one foot and might have some of the worst footwork in the NFL … Jameis' issue is believing he can make every throw and refusing to just give up and throw the ball away on any play … his issue is not mechanics or footwork or reading defenses or seeing the field … ALL his issues seem to be related to his desire to play "hero ball", which is why I've said that his wild success in college as a 19 year old was probably bad for his NFL prospects as he has always been "the hero" on every team he's been on and always carried his teams, and now, needs to realize no one can do that at the NFL level, not even him … in fact, the ONLY guy that came close to doing so was probably Dan Marino, and it's no coincidence that Marino never won a ring either ...
Jameis has all the athleticism and a really good arm, as well as the potential to be a great QB.
Indeed … and he's also known for his insane work ethic and for being all about the "team" and not carrying one bit about stats … so … I'm still all-in on Jameis and it would surprise me if he doesn't end up in the Hall of Fame when all is said and done … we'll see what happens.
He just doesn't learn or progress in his decision making and that is really what it holding him back.
I agree 100% which is why I called for him to be benched BEFORE Koetter announced the benching … I believe young QBs (especially ones like Jameis who like to be coached hard) should be coached hard … now, if you've got a guy who doesn't like to be yelled at or doesn't respond to hard coaching, that's one thing, but Jameis has said many times he loves to be screamed at and likes to be coached super hard, therefore, I applaud Coach Koetter for coaching him hard!
I see him making the same bad decisions and throws he made when he was a rookie. So, great you throw for 400+ yards but throw more picks than TDs. Going to be hard to win games that way.
You're not wrong … but again, Favre NEVER learned to "play smart" until he was around 40 with the Vikings for a year … and Peyton Manning threw ONE HUNDRED INTERCEPTIONS in his first 5 seasons … and that was after playing 4 years of NCAA Football … we'll see what happens with Jameis … he may NEVER learn to stop playing hero ball, or he may be like Peyton and always consider himself a gunslinger but just learn to play a more efficient brand of football … we'll see what happens.
Also, I disagree with the support from the team comment regarding Fitz. DeSean Jackson and Mike Evans were thriving under Fitz.
They thrived because they got wide open in those first few games … they did nothing against the Bears and today did nothing against the Panthers … Desean had just 2 catches and Mike Evans was targeted 10 times and caught just ONE pass from Fitz today … also, Mike Evans LOVES Jameis and was disgusted with himself after the Bengals game for letting Jameis down and has made similar comments before. I don't believe Desean and DJax have a great on-field chemistry but Jameis did hit DJax for the game-clinching throw against the Browns and then hit him in a 60 yard bomb TD against the Bengals, so … who knows.
Winston comes back and after 2 games, Jax wants to get traded!!! He wanted to get traded after Winston came back because ????
Jackson wants a ring, period. Jameis got him better stats in his last two games than Fitz got him in his last 2 games but in those 4 combined games, the team is just 1-3 … Desean Jackson knows his career is winding down and wants a ring, period.
I do remember the Evans comments supporting Winston, but he did that for Fitz as well. So, I am not arguing that they support Fitz but not Winston. What I am saying, is that I don't believe it is one sided. The team seems to support both.
Oh, I agree with you 100% on the above statement … I don't think they support one guy and not the other, I think they support both just fine … I think DJax preferred playing with Fitz who throws a softer ball with more hang time (though again Jackson put up much better stats with Jameis than Fitz over each QBs last two games with him) but I believe Evans, Brate, OJ, Godwin and Hump all prefer Jameis. Regardless, the Bucs do seem to have non-divas at the receiver spot, at least outside of DJax, so that lends itself to guys supporting whichever QB is slinging it to them, which is great.
I have never seen a back and forth starting QB carousel like this, so it will be interesting. I personally don't think it is good for team morale to keep doing it though!
Honestly, it doesn't matter as the defense is historically bad and therefore the "team" sucks … I predicted they'd go no better than 7-9 before the season and I'm sticking with that … it's hard to win games when you have to average 40+ points per game …Last edited by Jameis1of1; 11-04-2018 at 07:30 PM.
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11-04-2018, 07:50 PM #179
YES! Winston is the best to ever play the game. He should be in the HOF immediately and is going to win 5 championships. I get that is what you believe! I was not trolling. Simply trying to point out your biased comparison (as usual). We aren't comparing him to Emmitt or Tarkenton as they weren't part of this conversation. Not to mention that comparing his stats to Emmitt would be weird and pointless. Emmitt is a 3-Time Champion, not to mention the all-time leader in rushing yards.
My point was, if you are trying to show what he has accomplished at a young age, then compare him to guys that actually started their NFL careers around the same time. Not guys who entered the NFL 2 years later. Of course Winston would have more stats than those guys, so what is the point of that comparison. It makes no sense.
My opinion is that Winston will never win a championship, will not make it to the HOF, and will be lucky to be in Tampa next year. He is not a leader, even though I know you feel different about that. It is simply my opinion as you are entitled to yours. It isn't trolling for someone to point out their opinion and a biased comparison that you have made numerous times.
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11-05-2018, 02:57 AM #180
You just don't get it … after all this time you still don't get it … I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over to you, only for you to ignore every word I type and then misrepresent my statements … it makes you look foolish but you seem to enjoying doing such, so, have fun ...
My point was, if you are trying to show what he has accomplished at a young age, then compare him to guys that actually started their NFL careers around the same time. Not guys who entered the NFL 2 years later. Of course Winston would have more stats than those guys, so what is the point of that comparison. It makes no sense.
Holy cow! What do you not get about Jameis being #1 ALL-TIME in NFL HISTORY in both pass yards & pass TDs by the age of 24 … that is when EVERY QB THAT HAS EVER PLAYED is included … you're asking me to show you Jameis' stats measured against Fran Tarkenton instead of Manning? If you're that curious, just look them up yourself … Jameis still tops him too as Jameis tops EVERY QB THAT HAS EVER PLAYED … this isn't hard to understand.
My opinion is that Winston will never win a championship, will not make it to the HOF, and will be lucky to be in Tampa next year.
That's cute … your "opinion" is irrelevant … I don't care about opinions, I don't even care about my own mere opinion, I care about statistical analysis and facts. It is a 100% fact that Jameis is on a Hall of Fame pace at his current age … whether or not he ends up in the HOF is anyone's guess, but the stats say it's a solid bet for right now … we'll see what happens.
He is not a leader, even though I know you feel different about that. It is simply my opinion as you are entitled to yours.
Again, opinions mean nothing to me … my own opinion doesn't even mean anything to me … I'm all about stats and facts and the fact is that Jameis proved he was a great leader in college and in his first 2 years in the NFL … it's also a fact that Jason Licht who worked for years with Tom Brady has said that Jameis is a better natural leader than Brady … it's also a fact that basically every coach and teammate Jameis has ever had has raved about his leadership … now, whether he winds up being known as one of the great leaders at the QB position by the time he retires is anyone's guess, but what he has already accomplished at the age of 24 points to there being a good chance that happens ...
It isn't trolling for someone to point out their opinion and a biased comparison that you have made numerous times.
There is nothing "biased" about my statistical charts as Jameis would still be #1 in both yards & TDs if the chart was 125 pages long and listed every QB who has ever played on it as Jameis is #1 ALL-TIME in NFL HISTORY in those categories.
Anyways, you like to troll … you have already admitted such in the past so it's strange you're now taking offence to your trolling being pointed out ... but, it is what it is. I don't respect it and I think it's silly, but you have your fun, it doesn't bother me ...
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