HOF Goalies - Have the floodgates opened?

[30ranfordfan]

The Hockey Hall of Fame has been incredibly tough on goalies over the years. I think there are a lot of skaters that have made it who could be described more as "very good" rather "elite". That really hasn't been the case with goalies.

The only one inducted in the 1990s was Billy Smith (1993)
Two were inducted in the 2000s (Fuhr in 2003, Roy in 2006)
Three more in the 2010s (Belfour in 2011, Hasek in 2014, Vachon in 2016).
Luongo was inducted in 2022.


This year? We got three more: Lundqvist, Barrasso, and Vernon.


Lundqvist was, no doubt, one of the very best when he played. His win (459) rank 6th all time. He won a Vezina trophy, was nominated a few other times. Never won a Cup, but lots of medals internationally.

There's been a lot of "why these guys, and why now?" talk about Barrasso & Vernon. While their win totals (385, 369) aren't as impressive as Lundqvist's - they both have multiple Cups, and have both won major hardware (Vezina & Calder for Barrasso, Smythe for Vernon. Both with a Jennings).

While I do believe Lundqvist is the better of the three going in this year - I have a hard time believing that the "career greatness gap" between Hank & the other two is wide enough that one is a sure-fire first-ballot Hall of Famer, and the other two shouldn't be in. I suspect that line of reasoning is exactly why you're seeing both Barrasso & Vernon get in now. If Lundqvist is a HOFer, those guys are too.

I wonder if this opens up the floodgates on goalies now.... because there are a TON of comparables to those three:

Curtis Joseph has 5 less wins than Lundqvist. 454 is 7th all time. I'll reuse my words from before: I think Lundqvist is the better of the two, but I don't see how you can argue that the career greatness gap is so wide that Hank is considered a lock, and Cujo doesn't get in. I think Joseph will get in, in the next couple of years.

If Vernon & Barrasso are in - how much longer before Chris Osgood (more Cups, more wins, better GAA & SV%) gets in? Does this mean that Jonathan Quick is a HOFer too (375 wins, multiple cups) ? What about Andy Moog (372 wins, multiple cups) ?

I've heard Ryan Miller's name tossed around as heading to the HOF too. I'll admit that I had never really thought about him as an eventual HOFer. He won a Vezina, 391 games. No Cups. I remember him being an excellent goalie, but I don't recall anyone talking about him like he was one of the best 2 or 3 goalies in the world (aside from his Vezina season). Does Lundqvist's quick induction make a case for Miller? If Miller goes in, can you still keep Vanbiesbrouck out?

Is Carey Price a HOFer (lots of people talk about him like he'll get there). I assume he's done playing. 361 wins & a Vezina trophy is a fine career. He was definitely considered the best goalie in the world for an extended period of time. If Price gets in, what about the guy with the same number of Vezinas (1), 8 extra wins (in 29 less games) and a better career GAA & eqaul career SV% ? (I'm talking about Pekka Rinne).



So much of the HOF discussion is based on comparing the player against other HOFers 6 goalies were inducted in the 30 years between 1990 & 2019. There were 8 inducted in the 1980s (Harry Lumley, Gump Worsley, Ken Dryden, Bernnie Parent, Gerry Cheevers, Eddie Giacomin, Tony Esposido, Vladislav Tretiak). There have already been 4 inducted in the 2020s - and by picking those names (Lundqvist, Vernon, Barrasso) I think it means you're going to see a TON more get in over the next few years. There are 8 names I've mentioned that I think are going to get serious consideration over the next few years (Cujo, Osgood, Quick, Moog, Miller, Vanbiesbrouck, Price, Rinne). I should also mention another active guy who is probably going to be in the top 10 for all time wins before he retires: Sergei Bobrovsky. Andrei Vasilevski certainly projects like a future HOFer too.

How many of these guys get in? I think it's a certainty that at least 5 of those names make it, and the 2020s beats the 1980s for goalies in a decade.... maybe even breaks the 9 that were inducted in the 1960s.

[subban7677]

This should be fun. Carey Price is the perfect example. You're going to have people say he's a sure-fire, first ballot Hall of Famer. Then, you'll have others say he was grossly overrated and was never very good except for 2014-15. Let the fun begin!

[sleepn0t]

Wow! Great thread 30ranfordfan!! Awesome text.. About Price, well I think nobody should forget that he played his whole career with a very ordinary team. Sorry to say, I have nothing against the Habs (on the contrary) as I used to be one of their fans back in the 90s & in the early 00s... But we've got to all admit, the Mtl Canadiens roster, almost as far as I can remember, has oftentimes, way too often btw, been "average Joe", if not a little bit worse than that.

Come on! Most of the time, the Canadiens' 1st & 2nd line are/would be third or fourth anywhere else in the league. And I don't even think I'm exaggerating here, barely if I do.. So, to me, Carey is a no brainer into the HHOF. Period! One gold medal with the Olympic team (maybe this number would be higher if the NHL had gone to the Olympics in 2018, and in 2022 too?), came really really close to win the Stanley Cup in 2021 (remember with the COVID thing the Bolts could have a lot of their fans in the stands when playing at home, while with the restrictions still in place in Canada the Habs had no crowd in their building). So home ice advantage was 200% in favor of the Tampa Bay Lightning...

Also, with a good knee, Price would assuredly still play, as we speak! Thus who knows how many additional victories he'd get?! Without hesitation, I say he could have reached the 450, 500+ mark maybe? Anyway, probably in that range.. So he would be among the best goalies of all-time in that category. I can't help but think how (better) his career would have been if only he had been drafted by the Hawks, Penguins, Kings, let's say we can also include Tampa in this short list; in brief, whatever team that won multiple championships in the last fifteen years or so. I sincerely believe he was as good as any of the goalkeepers (Crawford - Fleury - Quick - Vasilevskiy, etc.) who were playing for the few teams I just mentioned, at the time these won their respective Cups. All that being said, Price is gonna be inducted into the HHOF, at some point. Maybe not on his first year of admittance, but he will eventually.. I'm positive about this!

Also, I don't wanna "waste" this thread, after all we're talking about goaltenders here, but on another note, the Sportsnet network did talk shortly about a few of the former NHL players who, for some reason, were being snubbed big time by the League regarding the Hall of Fame. We'll start with a goalie since this thread is justly one concerning goalies after all.. Curtis Joseph (Cujo) is the perfect "snubbed-club" example, I mean, how come this guy is still not there. Then, center Pierre Turgeon just got in, FINALLY! Look at the guy's numbers! Really?! He just got in, I thought he was/deserved to be there YEARS ago...

What about Jeremy Roenick?! What does it take to get there? Come on! What did these inducted on the late, or even still not inducted at all, do to the League to be snubbed at such a high level?! Mogilny is still not there either; anyways there are way too many players that should w/o a doubt be HOFers, and that are not yet to this day. I think the NHL needs to address on this issue, and explain itself once and for all. It's about time!!! Hopefully though, 30ranfordfan is right about the possible eventuality that more and more former goaltenders are gonna be admitted.. It's true that the NHL has been (more than) hard on them in the last couple of years.

[Devlin]

Not a Habs fan. Price a Hofer

[mooneyes]

I don't know a lot about the position but career SV seems like a very important stat to me. Price is up there at 0.917. Hasek and Dryden are #1 all time at 0.922

Below 0.900 seems pretty weak, but Smith, Vanbiesbrouck, Barrasso, Vernon, and Fuhr at 0.877 are well below but in the HOF. By comparison, Patrick Roy's SV was 0.910

I find it hard to get excited by the modern 6'5" positional goalie who looks like the Michelin man. Guys like Vasy, Rinne, Price, Rask, Hellebuyck but they get the job done better than their peers so that is all you can ask.

[30ranfordfan]

Wow! Great thread 30ranfordfan!! Awesome text.. About Price, well I think nobody should forget that he played his whole career with a very ordinary team. Sorry to say, I have nothing against the Habs (on the contrary) as I used to be one of their fans back in the 90s & in the early 00s... But we've got to all admit, the Mtl Canadiens roster, almost as far as I can remember, has oftentimes, way too often btw, been "average Joe", if not a little bit worse than that.

Come on! Most of the time, the Canadiens' 1st & 2nd line are/would be third or fourth anywhere else in the league. And I don't even think I'm exaggerating here, barely if I do.. So, to me, Carey is a no brainer into the HHOF. Period! One gold medal with the Olympic team (maybe this number would be higher if the NHL had gone to the Olympics in 2018, and in 2022 too?), came really really close to win the Stanley Cup in 2021 (remember with the COVID thing the Bolts could have a lot of their fans in the stands when playing at home, while with the restrictions still in place in Canada the Habs had no crowd in their building). So home ice advantage was 200% in favor of the Tampa Bay Lightning...

Also, with a good knee, Price would assuredly still play, as we speak! Thus who knows how many additional victories he'd get?! Without hesitation, I say he could have reached the 450, 500+ mark maybe? Anyway, probably in that range.. So he would be among the best goalies of all-time in that category. I can't help but think how (better) his career would have been if only he had been drafted by the Hawks, Penguins, Kings, let's say we can also include Tampa in this short list; in brief, whatever team that won multiple championships in the last fifteen years or so. I sincerely believe he was as good as any of the goalkeepers (Crawford - Fleury - Quick - Vasilevskiy, etc.) who were playing for the few teams I just mentioned, at the time these won their respective Cups. All that being said, Price is gonna be inducted into the HHOF, at some point. Maybe not on his first year of admittance, but he will eventually.. I'm positive about this!

Also, I don't wanna "waste" this thread, after all we're talking about goaltenders here, but on another note, the Sportsnet network did talk shortly about a few of the former NHL players who, for some reason, were being snubbed big time by the League regarding the Hall of Fame. We'll start with a goalie since this thread is justly one concerning goalies after all.. Curtis Joseph (Cujo) is the perfect "snubbed-club" example, I mean, how come this guy is still not there. Then, center Pierre Turgeon just got in, FINALLY! Look at the guy's numbers! Really?! He just got in, I thought he was/deserved to be there YEARS ago...

What about Jeremy Roenick?! What does it take to get there? Come on! What did these inducted on the late, or even still not inducted at all, do to the League to be snubbed at such a high level?! Mogilny is still not there either; anyways there are way too many players that should w/o a doubt be HOFers, and that are not yet to this day. I think the NHL needs to address on this issue, and explain itself once and for all. It's about time!!! Hopefully though, 30ranfordfan is right about the possible eventuality that more and more former goaltenders are gonna be admitted.. It's true that the NHL has been (more than) hard on them in the last couple of years.

I won't switch to skaters either - but I'll mention that I do believe Roenick & Mogilny should be in. They're not perfect / shoe-in candidates..... but their stats are right up there with other HOFers, and they pass the "eye test" for me WAY more so than other players that have already gotten in (when you watched them play, they LOOKED like a HOFer).

When we're talking about current (long running) snubs - Cujo was that IMO. I'm not necessarily surprised Lundqvist got in before him, but I am surprised that Vernon & Barrasso are both in, and Cujo is not. When you look at his numbers.... 400+ wins should be automatic.

Price will be the fascinating one, for me. I very much agree he passes the "eye test" that I mentioned regarding Mogilny & Roenick. Price struck me as an all-time great, playing on a weak team (most years).

The eye test can't be everything (and clearly its not). We can speculate how much better his stats would be if he was healthy - but he wasn't, and they're not (I am assuming he's done).

Carey Price: 712 games played. 361 wins (22nd). Career 2.51 GAA. Career 0.917 SV% 49 Shutouts (33rd)
Pekka Rinne: 683 games played. 369 wins (20th). Career 2.43 GAA. Career 0.917 SV% 60 Shutouts (19th)

Rinne was drafted in 2004 (age 22). Played another year in Finland, then came over and played 3 seasons in the AHL (and a couple of spot starts in the NHL). Full-time NHLer (and started) in 2008-09 (age 26). Retired at age 39
Price was drafted in 2005 (age 18). Played two more seasons of junior, with a cup of coffee in the AHL. 2007-08 he had a bit of AHL time, but he played 41 NHL games. Bonafide #1 goalie pretty much right away (age 20). Not even sure we can count his 2021-22 season (5 games). He was basically done at the end of 2020-21 (age 34).

Rinne did miss a bit of time with injuries over the years, but their NHL careers lasted similar lengths - Rinne's started later in life, Price's cut short due to injury.

Hardware?

Rinne is a 4x all star, Vezina winner, King Clancy Winner, and was once a 1st Team All Star, and once a 2nd Team All Star.
Price is a 7x all star, Vezina winner, Hard winner, Lindsay winner, Jennings winner, Masteron winner. He was an NHL All-Rookie Team member, and a 1st All Star Team once.

Price helped the Hamilton Bulldogs win an AHL Championship in 2007 (2 GP in the regular season after junior was done, but 22 GP in the playoffs).
Rinne won a pair of SM-Liiga championships in 2004 & 2005

Internationally?
Price won Gold at the WJC (2007), Olympics (2014), and World Championship (2016).
Rinne won a Silver with Finland at the World Championship (2014).

Price played in one Stanley Cup Finals, same for Rinne.


I certainly agree that Price's hardware is more impressive, and so are his international accomplishments.

My own take on the international stuff: I don't give a ton of bonus points to anyone for their time with Team Canada. I don't want to diminish the accomplishment - but Canada winning an Olympic Gold medal at hockey isn't that big of a deal. There were other goalies who could have played in his place - and Canada likely still wins. (Without Rinne, that Finland team probably DOES NOT win Silver at the 2014 Worlds).

If we one day hear that Price's MVP in 2015 makes him a HOFer, and Rinne's lack of an MVP (by comparison) is why he isn't in - I suppose I can accept that. A Hart trophy is a HUGE deal.

All I'm saying with these two - their careers are basically identical. Price's best season was better than Rinne's best season - but aside from that, they're pretty much on par with each other.

How does one go in, and the other does not?

Not a Habs fan. Price a Hofer

Me neither, and I do believe he'll get there too..... but when you compare him to other guys that are not in yet - who else goes in when you elect Price? (i.e. Rinne)

I don't know a lot about the position but career SV seems like a very important stat to me. Price is up there at 0.917. Hasek and Dryden are #1 all time at 0.922

Below 0.900 seems pretty weak, but Smith, Vanbiesbrouck, Barrasso, Vernon, and Fuhr at 0.877 are well below but in the HOF. By comparison, Patrick Roy's SV was 0.910

I find it hard to get excited by the modern 6'5" positional goalie who looks like the Michelin man. Guys like Vasy, Rinne, Price, Rask, Hellebuyck but they get the job done better than their peers so that is all you can ask.

I think SV% is important. GAA is important. So are SOs, Cups, and (of course) wins. I do think the expectation is that they were better than their peers, not necessarily better or equal to "all-timers" when it comes to SV% and GAA. Adjust for era, and also consider how they stack up during their career. I'm making up numbers - not thinking about anyone specific - if you've got an .890% and a 15 year career..... and were consistently top 5 for that stat..... or a .905%, also for 15 years, and also consistently top 5: I don't think the 15 points really matter.

I've been talking about Price in this thread as if he'll get into the HOF, and assume he's done playing. Consider these stats for him & the three guys who just got in:

Price 712 GP, 361 W, 2.51 GAA, 0.917 SV%, 49 SO. 1 Hart, 1 Vezina, 1 Jennings, 1 Finals, 7 ASG
Vernon 781 GP, 385 W, 2.98 GAA, .889 SV%, 27 SO, 1 Smythe, 1 Jennings, 2 Cups, 2 other Finals, 5 ASG
Barasso 777 GP, 369 W, 3.24 GAA, .892 SV%, 38 SO, 1 Vezina, 1 Jennings, 1 Calder, 2 Cups, 1 ASG
Lundqvist 887 GP, 459 W, 2.43 GAA, .918 SV%, 64 SO, 1 Vezina, 1 Finals, 5 ASG

Then consider these four guys, vs those five:

Rinne 683 GP, 369 W, 2.43 GAA, .917 SV%, 60 SO, 1 Vezina, 1 Finals, 4 ASG
Joseph 943 GP, 454 W, 2.79 GAA, .906 SV%, 51 SO, 3 ASG, No Finals (East Final was his furtherst)
Osgood 744 GP, 401 W, 2.49 GAA, .905 SV%, 50 SO, 2 Jennings, 3 Cups (one as backup), 3 ASG (hurt and didn't play in 1)
Moog 713 GP, 372 W, 3.14 GAA, .892 SV%, 28 SO, 1 Jennings, 3 Cups (non a 'starter' but game action in all three playoffs), 2 other finals (starter), 4 ASG, Jennings
Quick 753 GP, 375 W, 2.47 GAA, .911 SV%, 58 SO, 2 Jennings, 1 Smythe, 3 Cups (2 as starter), 3 ASG (and counting!)

I really believe that each member of the second group of five has as good, or better, HOF credentials as (at least) one guy in the first group.

This is why I do think the flood gates on goalies are about to open (if they haven't already). And without getting into the deeper stats / awards: Once you bring in some (most? all?) of those names: Ryan Miller, John Vanbiesbrouck, and Sergei Bobrovsky aren't far behind.

[doniceage]

When you want criteria on either of Osgood or Vernon you have too include the Brawls. I mean those moments in some of the best playoff hockey ever imo as emotions ran high for not just one series but spilled into years LOL.

Also, a knock on the Vernon and Barasso fair or not did they not play in the day when goal scoring was a lamplighter paradise hence their saves percentage would be a lot lower than guys Like Osgood and Lundqvist, Quick, and many of the guys that came later.

I definitely think more goalies should be getting in as you mentioned their are a lot of players who are not ELITE.

[sleepn0t]

In short, I think Price, Rinne, Joseph, Osgood, Moog and Quick should/will all be there someday, at some point. To me, they all deserve to be HOFers anyway...

[OscarsCards]

Does the HHOF stand only for numbers and statistics? Ryan Miller deserves to be inducted and Arturs Irbe too because he was an inspiration on ice and off ice and still is.

By the way they should open a 2nd tier of HHOF and it should be called - hockey hall of very good. That's all right idea and there is no shame in it.

[Devlin]

How about a third tier for GOOdD and a fourth tier for playing in the NHL.