The Lack Of Vintage Collectors Is Depressing Rant

[4ant4]

while i agree with some of your statements, generalizing it isn't right either. at some point, these cards will be vintage. say what you will but even some 90s inserts will already fetch crazy coin these days. saying terms like "sticker auto" or "fake photo shoot" to cheapen the feel of today's cards to support your take on the matter doesn't seem completely right either when people are buying vintage cards which are in crap condition. autos and memorabilia are a relatively new phenomenon so there's really no telling how people will react to it 50 years from now.

and of all the cards to name that won't hold their value you choose possibly the 2 MOST likely to hold their value?

I see what you are saying, but look at two of the hottest and biggest selling players of the 90's, Jagr and Bure. People soaked huge money into their cards, and they lost their tale on them if they didn't dump at the right time. Remember the 90 OPC Premier RC's? I bought and sold so many of those graded a PSA 10 that I was able to purchase a car with the profits. Now, you can get a Jagr PSA 10 for under $10 if you are patient.

As for the photo shoot fake auto, sure, I did use it to cheapen the cards. That's my opinion, and I'm not alone in that thought pattern. Eventually the hobby is going to realize they are investing insane amounts of money into cards with questionable authenticity. It has happened numerous times with all the fakes, and especially with all the patch forgery going on, these cards are going to take a major market hit and some are already starting to. There is only one constant in the hobby that never changes, pre-1960 cards sell for good money, especially with a high grade, and there will always be new collectors chasing them. It's history, it's the essence of the game, and more people will be looking to add cards of Maurice Richard, Bobby Orr, and Gordie Howe to their collection 50 years from now, then will be looking to add Carey Price or Steven Stamkos.

I am all for people spending crazy money on these modern cards, believe me, I have benefitted from it myself. But I was responding to direct claims from one person who is way off base with their statements, at least in my opinion.

[deankal]

Everything is based on demand, especially on a long term run. People won't pay for Adam Oates but they will pay for Mario Lemieux. People won't pay for Andrew Raycroft but they will pay for Martin Brodeur. A major part of the hobby activity is around RC names/cards and the hype of the new players. A lot of collectors hope to buy a card of a prospect name for cheap that will turn into a superstar player where the card will worth hundreds of dollar in the future. However most prospect names turn into noname players. Vintage cards are not that easy to sell. First, demand is pretty low. Who collect cards of Tim Horton? try to trade a card of Tim Horton... very difficult to trade. So, you can eat your money with modern cards as for vintage cards if what you have in your hands don't get significant demand in the hobby. Briefly, we can probably say that anything less than the best cards (vintage or modern) are unseless in this hobby due to the large selection that the collectors have. People remember only who won the gold medal... this hobby is not different than the rest of our society. Sad but a true fact.

Again JF,

You are basing that the vintage cards don't sell or trade well on THIS site. There are other sites where if you posted that you had a rookie, 1st year, 2nd year, 3rd year HIGH grade Tim Horton it would sell in about 2 minutes....maybe even instantly. It'd probably sell 5 times over book raw if you could find one in GREAT mint shape. If you did decide to get it graded and it came back with grade that only 2 or 3 had I'm sure you'd get 10-20 times over book, amybe more!!!! Are you serious with your statement that you coudn't unload a Tim Horton rookie or have a hard time trading it? That's just an impossible statement.......

You're just looking in the wrong places.

Again, maybe the people YOU hang out with or that YOU deal with think that vintage is useless and can't sell for a dime, but I'll gladly find you a TON of people interested in it. You're just looking in the wrong places and the circle of collectors you deal with aren't interested in it. Which is OK, but to say vintage doesn't sell or you can't find anyone to buy it off of you is the funniest thing I have ever heard by anyone on this site!!

Just go to the Expo and try and pickup a Maurice the Rocket Richard rookie psa 9 or a Gordie Howe rookie psa 9 or Georges Vezina psa 7 rookie ( I could go on and on and on but I'd be pointless) and see what you have to pay for it.....Even a Tim Horton rookie will cost you A LOT more than you think!!!

Here's an example.....

I just recently sold an Ovechkin Playmakers multi-colored patch /10, which is probably one of his best looking (non rookie) 100% legit cards out there. I had it available and posted on this site for months and finally agreed upon a deal with a great member!!!
I also listed 10 or so 1910 c55's and had them listed for a day. I had probably 10 extremely well offers to buy them all and about 30 more emails and messages to buy individual ones. Let's just say I had them sold by the next day....

So like I see it like this.....

If you're trying to sell a mule at a car dealership, chances are you're going to have a tough time. The donkey eats hay, like a car sucks in gas. The donkey get get you from point A to point B just like the car will, but chances are it'll take you a bit longer to get there on the donkey. The donkey comes with a saddle and a set of straps to help you control and guide the car, where the car comes with a driver seat and a steering wheel. The problem you'll encounter when trying to sell the donkey at the car dealership, is that people won't likely purchase it, BUT if you took the donkey to some remote place where donkeys are a plentiful and people still use them as a method of transoprtation I bet you'll be able to sell it instantly. I just think you're not really looking outside the box when saying that vintage cards don't sell anywhere. They MOST DEFINITELY do......

Another popular site also added the "vintage" topic a few months ago (maybe a year ago) as to have a place to discuss and buy/sell/trade and it seems to doing quite well as there are discussions and deals happening on a regualr basis. Again vintage isn't going to be one of the most popular thing on sites like this and it's 100% understandable why, but please don't say that there isn't a market for vintage as it's the most obscure and hialrious comment I've seen in a long long time. Just take the time online and you'll see.......

I think a discussion like this is great for sites like this. Vintage isn't for everybody, that's for sure. Alot of it has to do with the younger generation not seeing Bobby Orr play and thus they can't relate to the vintage aspect of the hobby. I haven't seen Bobby Orr or the Rocket play, but would a high grade Bobby Orr or The Rocket be the pinnacle of mine and anyones collection, chances are they would be. As there are only a handful (and I mean maybe 8 or so) of Orr's or the Rocket's cards out there with high grades. I'd probabaly have to re mortgage the house or sell the wife's car to just to get my mits on one of these and even then they may never become avaialable.....EVER!!!
I came into this hobby never touching a vintage card and even knowing what it is. I was chasing the Cup rookies like a mad man and that's what I enjoyed to do!! I also picked up a few vintage cards along the way and I've enjoyed that aspect of the hobby immensely as well. I can tell you one thing though. I haven't lost a nickle on any vintage card I have had to sell....EVER!! At worse I sold it exactly what I paid for it and in most cases I made a few extra bucks. I honestly can't say that with the new shiny stuff......can you?

[ravens_creed]

Vintage collectors don't pay, demand is not there. Also see the value of most ITG cards with "vintage" names.... demand is not enough strong. Look on cards shows, even at the Toronto Expo, vintage is not in big demand comparatively to modern cards. We are in the era of auto and memorabilia cards, not cards only made of cardboard. Sorry, but this is the reality in 2010.

I have to agree with this. I will also add that at most card shows, the number of vintage collectors is higher than it should be, so make the effort to attend! I was VERY disappointed with the lack of "new" material at the most recent Spring Expo here in Toronto. Too many vintage collectors offering too limited a number and range of cards. Big card shows are ideal for vintage collectors, since they seem to represent a higher percentage of sellers than there are buyers looking for their stuff. Just throwing numbers out there randomly, if about 10-15% of all collectors nowadays are vintage collectors, the number of sellers at cards shows is almost 50% of the tables you find there. Great for vintage hunters, poor for buyers into the newer stuff.

While being a vintage collector is certainly a niche in the hobby, I often find that too many vintage sellers do the current vintage buyers and collectors a disservice by having absolutely no knowledge of the current state of the hobby or market. Their prices and their knowledge is out of whack. By a lot. Much of the time. :)

[roy.the.greatest]

We are talking about vintage cards, Mario Lemieux and Adam Oates are not vintage. Most people who deal in vintage consider 1960 as the breaking point, 50 years and older. You choose Tim Horton and say he is not tradeable? There has to be a reason, probably because whoever owns that Tim Horton card is asking way too much for it in return. Horton is one of the hottest traders/sellers especially with his vintage cards.

You talked about Andrew Raycroft cards (demand/investment), so I brought comparisons of names worthing something and names worthing nothing (that is not related to "vintage" as you did by bringing the Andrew Raycroft name into the discussion).

Please tell who is a reputable player collector of Tim Horton in 2010? He is probably not on forums, card shows or sportcards expos. Maybe this collector is deceased (!) in 2010... Most vintage collectors that are "well known" are not active on online trading web sites, they are aged of 50+ years old. The only place they generally go is eBay to unload some vintage stuff, and to buy few vintage cards, when they rarely find something they need (because offer is low). Like the generation of high-end collectors of Patrick Roy or Mario Lemieux which we are collectors of 30+ years old. This is why vintage collectors are rare and demand for this kind of cards is not high in the overall hobby community. The generation of young collectors collecting Sidney Crosby and Alexander Ovechkin cards don't care about the Tim Horton cards; and it is totally normal.

[roy.the.greatest]

Again JF,

You are basing that the vintage cards don't sell or trade well on THIS site.

You are right. Vintage cards don't sell on any online forums (not only here). However, even at the Toronto Expo, the biggest card show related to hockey cards, the vintage stuff is difficult to sell/trade. Do you agree on this? Thank you god that Brian (BMW) is there to buy the vintage stuff, he is the ONLY guy in this hobby paying decent prices.

[jonpop]

I have about 300 bukcs in my paypal account and would be more than happy to get rid of it for some vintage 50's, 60' high grade cards. LMK

[deankal]

You talked about Andrew Raycroft cards (demand/investment), so I brought comparisons of names worthing something and names worthing nothing (that is not related to "vintage" as you did by bringing the Andrew Raycroft name into the discussion).

Please tell who is a reputable player collector of Tim Horton in 2010? He is probably not on forums, card shows or sportcards expos. Maybe this collector is deceased (!) in 2010... Most vintage collectors that are "well known" are not active on online trading web sites, they are aged of 50+ years old. The only place they generally go is eBay to unload some vintage stuff, and to buy few vintage cards, when they rarely find something they need (because offer is low). Like the generation of high-end collectors of Patrick Roy or Mario Lemieux which we are collectors of 30+ years old. This is why vintage collectors are rare and demand for this kind of cards is not high in the overall hobby community. The generation of young collectors collecting Sidney Crosby and Alexander Ovechkin cards don't care about the Tim Horton cards; and it is totally normal.

For one, take your high grade Tim Horton rookie, go to the psa forums and put it up for sale. It won't even last 5 minutes......

You're totally delusional if you think there are no sites online where vintage is bought, sold and traded. Remember JF think outside the box!!!
Guranteed the highest priced cards that have sold and will sell are the highest vintage cards.....GUARANTEED. I'll get you sales of Gretzky's, Orr's well into the $25000-$35000+++.
Find a c57 Vezina graded a psa 5 or a 6 I know a guy who defintely has interest in finding one....$20000++++

Like I said there are a lot of places you can go look and wheel and deal for vintage, but according to you I guess there aren't any. I hope not too many collectors don't take your banter here too seriously....

Again adding vintage banter to a site like this would be well worth it. Learning up on the guys, who got the game going and listening to their stories and watching how the game evolved is great. And you can learn a bunch of that from buying a few vintage pieces from time to time. The root of hockey all started there and has lead us into the new generation where this hobby is today. Which is in a great place.....(I guess could be better at times).

[reoddai]

I'm seeing a lot of people talk about name players and extremely high prices. Certainly there will be fluctuations in value of anyone and who knows how a Roy RC will stack up against an Esposito RC 20 years from now? We can argue till we're blue in the face about which is more, but, if the vintage market is solely made up of people who can drop 10k+ on a card, then I'm sorry, but its doomed to be small forever. Who can afford to spend that kind of money on so many single cards? There have been a few polls on how much the average SCFer spends on their hobby and it usually comes in at less than 100$ a month.

What I want to know is how is the "regular Joe" vintage market doing? I'll never afford such expensive cards as those that are being talked about, so I'll never be able to broker a trade for any of them. Here's something that could be in my trade list someday.

Let's say I have a "Ron Stewart 1958-59 Parkhurst #14". who is Ron Stewart? Well, he's a 24 (!) year veteran of the game who played from 52-73. He's played for Toronto, Boston, St. Louis, NYR, Vancouver & the Islanders. He's not a HOF, but definitely a solid guy & he's been part of three Stanley Cup teams.

The 58-59 card has an average condition for the era. (Vg? Ex?). Its not graded because I hate having to store graded cards. Its got a BV of something like 15 if it was NrMt, but maybe only 6-8 in its current condition.

The only comparable guy I can think of is Chris Chelios. 26 year vet, similar amount of points and years judging from the eras. Not eligible for HOF yet. Played for Montreal, Chicago, Detroit, & Atlanta. Also three Stanley Cups. A comparable card for him would be.. Actually, I'm hard pressed to find a comparable card for him, because that would have been around 88-89 and nothing from there has the same value. I suppose lets say a... 85-86 OPc card - BV 8

Who gets my trading preference? Well, I do like certain vintage pieces. The ones I want through are way out of range for the Stewart. I have to face the fact that it will likely go towards a newer release card. That means that I'd have to pick the Chelios. Mostly because I know his name & not Ron Stewart's. What are the chances that whomever I trade with knows Stewart? Mostly everyone can ID Chelios, even if he's not the most famous of players right now. I'm sure Stewart was known in his time, if nothing else than he got around.

In addition to all that, I want to point out that you can't break vintage boxes. Oh sure, you CAN, but its just not within the budgets of most collectors. Perhaps that's what drives modern over vintage cards more than anything?

Cheers,
reoddai

[1967ers]

speaking of which, if anyone has any lots of 61-62 parkies for sale or trade, let me know!

I have a few, but they'll be VG at best. I've been upgrading that set.

[1967ers]

Who collect cards of Tim Horton?

Me. :)