The bible - fact or fiction???

[karnivore]

You're right, there's a difference between not being convinced and being willfully ignorant. I'm aware of the claims made about Christ, I'm just not convinced they are true.

But the vast, vast majority of creationists ARE willfully ignorant, and this is plainly evident by their words. That other guy was saying "where are all the half-human, half-animal fossils?" Like he's expecting us to produce a skeleton of a present-day human's head on a present-day chimp's body. Anyone who actually knows what evolution is or how it works would know that's NOT how it works, no one is looking for any such thing, that is impossible according to our present understanding, and to find it would actually go against the theory. But you try to tell them that and they won't listen. Try to tell them there is no such thing as a chimp with a human head (or in Kirk Cameron's case, a duck with a crocodile head), and they won't listen. They'll say they won't believe in evolution until you can show them that. You say that's not how it works, and there is no such thing. Then they just repeat themselves. You try to tell them to go and actually research evolution, and they'll say they don't have to, because they already know it's wrong...based on nothing but their personal preferences and prejudices. That IS willful ignorance.

Umm if you actually said something about its impossible instead of showing a human head and saying it is a chimp, then we could have talked. But instead the person didnt post their answers diligently. How is it wilfully ignorance when with Evolution theres the chimp to man artistry? That is what I was going by, which is what I meant from the half man/ half animal comment. Im sorry I wasn't clear enough, but it should have been noticed thats the animal I meant by it. I actually have researched about Evolution (not much mind you), like wasn't it all started because of a paragraph in Darwins book? I don't see how its willful ignorance when I came on here to talk about it but noone gives the answer until now that its not possible.

So tell me why its impossible.

[gatorboymike]

Because humans didn't evolve from present-day chimps. Humans and present-day chimps both evolved from a common ancestor.

Darwin wasn't the first person to propose the idea that all life stems from a common ancestor. He was just the guy who proposed the theory on how it happened which is accepted today. That's pretty much what his entire book was about.

[tutall]

Wow - you guys sure do post a lot during the days.... To catch up a little...

sure it's not an instant jump from single celled evolution to man, but it is a show of a fairly extensive evolution between the races due to areas of the world in which they lived. It's not just skin color and languages. The different races have many more differences than just that. There are different facial features, body types/sizes, and more. My point is simply even if you believe that god placed all of these people that descended from the same mother and father around the world in different climates, they ended up looking very different by the different places they lived over time. Not just had darker or lighter skin due to the area in which he placed them. Although I guess if you want to say that god also changes their looks as he "moved" these people around I have no defense to that.

I do believe in survival of the fittest... In some African countries food is scarce as is water. A smaller body type is pretty likely to ensue... In China they have a much different diet than what someone in America has. It is only common sense that they would appear differently.... You can even see it some in America. YOu can tell someone from the midwest most of the time over someone from New York. You live in Indiana... close to Indy if I remember correct and the difference just from Indy to where I am in up the NE corner is pretty clear.

Another good question about the creation of the bible... If the bible was in fact written by god or by man directly through god, then what about translation. The original wasn't written in english so who's to say it's all been translated correctly.

I would be willing to guess there are and always have been enough people following christianity to say it has been translated correctly. It isnt like there was one person who knew hebrew and mandarin and he was the only person that knew both, and he translated it by himself and everyone believed him. Sorry Mark - Not trying to demolish your points... just you seem to be the only one here who can have a rational conversation about this....

It would be nice if we did. However just like in the United States we have the constitution which is the law of the land that governs the people, the gov't has secrets the common man will never have access to. The average man may have access to a bible but not any of the church's secrets.

I completely disagree with this... I go to a church of nearly 600 and anyone who ever wants to can attend any board meeting, any church members meeting, anything they want too... If you are referring to the secret society churches or the cults within the churches that is completely different that christianity... The nice thing though about christianity... I dont need a church for anything... I need a personal relationship with Jesus and that is it. Honestly I rarely go to church anymore because I am not a fan of being judged. Most people at the church I attend look at me differently because of the background I come from but honestly....I dont need any of that. It is me and him... Thats it....

[QUOTE=mrveggieman;9702258]

I agree that all humans have sin in them and are faced with temptation every day but it's just a little to much for my liking to follow a man like Fallwell who spewed as much racism, bigotry, and homophobia as he did when he was alive. He had 0 credibility with me as a christian leader.

Calling him a christian leader is a bit of a stretch... he is the leader of a specific sect of christians.... He is not my leader nor do i agree with much of anything that comes out of his mouth...

There are so few true Christians left in this world that they are nearly non existent. Yes there are billions that claim they are but they live and act their lives in stark contrast to their claims. I know of many non-Christians that enact more Judea-christian values in their lives than most of today's believers. I also see alot of Idol worshiping in Christianity which is supposed to be a no no whether it be praying to saints and Jesus, the use of crosses, the false images of Jesus spattered everywhere. And lets not even start with the hatred and discrimination that alot of them express.

We forget the basic tenants of teachings that basically say love, honor and respect your fellow man and your world around you but most everyone has forgotten that.

Not going to necessarily go "most" with you but a large group of christians I would agree with you on.... Thefunny thing is i remember a discussion we had quite some time ago and you defended muslims as not all terrorists and violent people... The ironic part is you are willing to group all christians because a few have wronged you yet not a religion who crashed planes into our twin towers. I am in no way saying Islam is false, wrong, violent, anything like that... Just ironic you step up and defend them but group "most" christians together. You mention crosses and depicting jesus as worshipping idols but I would say they are worshipping what it stands for as opposed to the actual object

I wasn't talking about just confession... The act of confession is a whole other discussion... lol

I'm saying someone that truly find God as he's sitting in prison for killing, raping, molesting, or doing any other horrible act that productive non believing citizens don't do. How would one worship a god that would accept the murder who found god after all of his horrible acts into heaven but not a non believer who lives his live well?

It is because he has accepted god.... A murderer while sitting in jail honestly finds christ, repents his sins, accepts jesus into his heart and is forgiven. In the bible Jesus is asked how many times we should forgive someone and he replies 7 times 70... Im not saying I practice thisone every time but according to the Bible we should be very forgiving.

You're right, there's a difference between not being convinced and being willfully ignorant. I'm aware of the claims made about Christ, I'm just not convinced they are true.

But the vast, vast majority of creationists ARE willfully ignorant, and this is plainly evident by their words. That other guy was saying "where are all the half-human, half-animal fossils?" Like he's expecting us to produce a skeleton of a present-day human's head on a present-day chimp's body. Anyone who actually knows what evolution is or how it works would know that's NOT how it works, no one is looking for any such thing, that is impossible according to our present understanding, and to find it would actually go against the theory. But you try to tell them that and they won't listen. Try to tell them there is no such thing as a chimp with a human head (or in Kirk Cameron's case, a duck with a crocodile head), and they won't listen. They'll say they won't believe in evolution until you can show them that. You say that's not how it works, and there is no such thing. Then they just repeat themselves. You try to tell them to go and actually research evolution, and they'll say they don't have to, because they already know it's wrong...based on nothing but their personal preferences and prejudices. That IS willful ignorance.

Again, I do not have an issue with some evolution and can obviously see parts of it happening all around. I believe in survival of the fittest... Take the shark for instance (and by the way.... Shark Week starts here in a couple weeks i believe) They have been able to adapt to their surroundings and live for (hundreds? thousands? millions?) of years by being able to fit in to surroundings.

I know what every Christian thinks as much as Christians know what every atheist thinks, when they accuse me of being arrogant and close-minded, accepting scientific theories with no evidence, believing in nothing, living an empty life, worshipping Satan, worshipping Darwin, worshipping Dawkins, worshipping money, worshipping Obama, worshipping myself, worshipping science, having no morals, supporting the ideals of Stalin, wanting to wipe Christians off the face of the earth, being a homosexual, being a drug addict, being a pervert, being a murderer, secretly agreeing with them but just not admitting it because I just love to sin so much, hating God, thinking I am God, being possessed by a demon, being a demon myself, hating America, being glad 9/11 happened, being personally to blame for 9/11...heck, you name a terrible thing, and I've been accused of it by Christians. I'm just doing unto others as others have done unto me.



I guess you're a step ahead of the people I referenced in the previous paragraph, then. Although I do not think I'd enjoy being in the body of believers. And it seems to me that most self-described Christians do preach a doctrine of exclusion, not a doctrine of inclusion. They want the body of believers to be as small as possible, so they get a bigger piece of the God cake (insert Portal reference here). They do not make a serious attempt to spread the gospel, which goes against scripture, but they don't care. I've seen this plenty of times, preached most especially by street preachers, college campus preachers and Southern Baptist ministers. It's not a message of the path to salvation; it's a message of irrevocable damnation. It's "You're going to the lake of fire and there's nothing you can do about it."



I guess you could be not like those people. You could seek them out, and show them how they're wrong. Show them how they are misrepresenting Christianity. And if they refuse to listen, as I suspect they will, show their audience. You know, false preachers and such.

Again... This is my biggest problem with your posts... you include everyone in there because you have had a few people single you out or whatever has happened... You know, I have had all those things happen to me too... I have had them happen at church... At school, while playing basketball, at work, in meetings, everywhere... It sucks that it happened to you at school but it also isnt fair to everyone else you put everyone in one catergory and say screw you all.... Ihave had non-believers say some pretty awful stuff as well but I also realize 95 percent of people I meet regardless of religious orientation are decent people. Sorry the other 5 percent ruined it for you but just as it isnt fair to lump you as a non believer into a certain catergory of obama loving, stalin loving, homosexual, Darwin, Dawkins, and money loving it isnt fair for you to lump me in with the people who may have said those to you. I am far from a southern Baptist minister but I can tell you if they are truly saying the things you claim they are no where near the same religion I am....

Because humans didn't evolve from present-day chimps. Humans and present-day chimps both evolved from a common ancestor.

Darwin wasn't the first person to propose the idea that all life stems from a common ancestor. He was just the guy who proposed the theory on how it happened which is accepted today. That's pretty much what his entire book was about.

My problem with this is we have never found a solid link... At some time Chimps and Man had to split... We have found to my understanding what they believe may be a cheek bone and maybe an ear bone (I apologize, I did not look at the link earlier and no cannot find it) but I find it hard to believe we have found thousands of Dinosaur bones which were from thousands of years earlier (supposedly) and bones from animals as small as a rat yet we cannot find more than a couple bones that make the link from the Human/Chimp connection. I am not saying it couldnt have happened I am just saying it is weird they havent found a whole skeleton or something with a large enough connection we could pretty certainly depict what it was....

[Star_Cards]

I would be willing to guess there are and always have been enough people following christianity to say it has been translated correctly. It isnt like there was one person who knew hebrew and mandarin and he was the only person that knew both, and he translated it by himself and everyone believed him. Sorry Mark - Not trying to demolish your points... just you seem to be the only one here who can have a rational conversation about this....

No need to be sorry. My questions are in fact questions to see what people think... not the typical question to draw out an answer and then attack it. Although if I disagree it shall be known. lol

[habsheaven]

My problem with this is we have never found a solid link... At some time Chimps and Man had to split... We have found to my understanding what they believe may be a cheek bone and maybe an ear bone (I apologize, I did not look at the link earlier and no cannot find it) but I find it hard to believe we have found thousands of Dinosaur bones which were from thousands of years earlier (supposedly) and bones from animals as small as a rat yet we cannot find more than a couple bones that make the link from the Human/Chimp connection. I am not saying it couldnt have happened I am just saying it is weird they havent found a whole skeleton or something with a large enough connection we could pretty certainly depict what it was....

I should probably let GBM address this but I will express my thoughts on it anyway.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The ability to find thousands of dinosaur bones of different species from a similar time is not the same as establishing a progression of man over the milleniums. The amount of skulls they have found and dated clearly show a progression of a similar species, just because they have not been able to establish an unbroken link early on may speak to the abundance (or lack thereof) of the species in the era in question.

[theonedru]

Not going to necessarily go "most" with you but a large group of christians I would agree with you on.... Thefunny thing is i remember a discussion we had quite some time ago and you defended muslims as not all terrorists and violent people... The ironic part is you are willing to group all christians because a few have wronged you yet not a religion who crashed planes into our twin towers. I am in no way saying Islam is false, wrong, violent, anything like that... Just ironic you step up and defend them but group "most" christians together. You mention crosses and depicting jesus as worshipping idols but I would say they are worshipping what it stands for as opposed to the actual object

The biggest difference in this aspect is that most Christians do not practice what they preach, we see it everywhere and its funny you bring up Islam because its a truer religion that Christianity could ever be as they worship God and only God, yes they have prophets and they consider Jesus a prophet, a man like Muhammad, a great and wise man but just a man. In Christianity Jesus is worshiped and revered as much as God himself and the practices of Catholics is hideous praying to saints and such. And the false face of Jesus yo see everywhere that people pray to for guidance and such that is IDOLISM which breaks one of the 10 commandments. These are reasons why I can Closely compare the majority of Christians together because although they think they are doing good to their God they really are not, not saying they do this on purpose they have just been misguided and misdirected.

[Wudeverbro]

The biggest difference in this aspect is that most Christians do not practice what they preach, we see it everywhere and its funny you bring up Islam because its a truer religion that Christianity could ever be as they worship God and only God, yes they have prophets and they consider Jesus a prophet, a man like Muhammad, a great and wise man but just a man. In Christianity Jesus is worshiped and revered as much as God himself and the practices of Catholics is hideous praying to saints and such. And the false face of Jesus yo see everywhere that people pray to for guidance and such that is IDOLISM which breaks one of the 10 commandments. These are reasons why I can Closely compare the majority of Christians together because although they think they are doing good to their God they really are not, not saying they do this on purpose they have just been misguided and misdirected.

I'm not sure you understand the symbols that are within the church. The way you are explaining it makes it seem like Christians are worshiping an object which is entirely false. A cross, statue of Jesus, or a crucifix are just symbols. In the catholic church, sure, there are saints that are worshiped but not in the Protestant church. Christianity has a lot of misconceptions because there are different divisions and the doctrine can be very different. Because of the difference in doctrine, there will be a lot of inconsistencies observed by people outside the church, and I certainly can't blame them for that. But I don't know believe you can say "I can closely compare a majority of christians together" because of supposed idol worship in that manner. The biggest problem in the church today IMO in terms of idol worship is materialism.

And yes Jesus is revered as highly as God because they form part of the Holy Trinity with the Holy Spirit. They are all equal, different, but the same being. Don't ask me to concisely explain that though because I would probably do a horrible job at it.

[theonedru]

I'm not sure you understand the symbols that are within the church. The way you are explaining it makes it seem like Christians are worshiping an object which is entirely false. A cross, statue of Jesus, or a crucifix are just symbols. In the catholic church, sure, there are saints that are worshiped but not in the Protestant church. Christianity has a lot of misconceptions because there are different divisions and the doctrine can be very different. Because of the difference in doctrine, there will be a lot of inconsistencies observed by people outside the church, and I certainly can't blame them for that. But I don't know believe you can say "I can closely compare a majority of christians together" because of supposed idol worship in that manner. The biggest problem in the church today IMO in terms of idol worship is materialism.

And yes Jesus is revered as highly as God because they form part of the Holy Trinity with the Holy Spirit. They are all equal, different, but the same being. Don't ask me to concisely explain that though because I would probably do a horrible job at it.

They kneel before them and use them to incite prayer, you call the figure of Jesus on a cross, but call it as it is its an IDOL esp since its not even the real face of Jesus. And Jesus is not God cannot be God and as such the worship of him is a false worship, remember the bible "there shall be no other god but me" well that says it all No Jesus, no crosses no saints nothing to that matter but God.

[mrveggieman]

Not going to necessarily go "most" with you but a large group of christians I would agree with you on.... Thefunny thing is i remember a discussion we had quite some time ago and you defended muslims as not all terrorists and violent people... The ironic part is you are willing to group all christians because a few have wronged you yet not a religion who crashed planes into our twin towers. I am in no way saying Islam is false, wrong, violent, anything like that... Just ironic you step up and defend them but group "most" christians together. You mention crosses and depicting jesus as worshipping idols but I would say they are worshipping what it stands for as opposed to the actual object

The biggest difference in this aspect is that most Christians do not practice what they preach, we see it everywhere and its funny you bring up Islam because its a truer religion that Christianity could ever be as they worship God and only God, yes they have prophets and they consider Jesus a prophet, a man like Muhammad, a great and wise man but just a man. In Christianity Jesus is worshiped and revered as much as God himself and the practices of Catholics is hideous praying to saints and such. And the false face of Jesus yo see everywhere that people pray to for guidance and such that is IDOLISM which breaks one of the 10 commandments. These are reasons why I can Closely compare the majority of Christians together because although they think they are doing good to their God they really are not, not saying they do this on purpose they have just been misguided and misdirected.

Some muslims such as Osama bin Laden and John Allen Muhammad are poor representatives of Islam just like some christians like Jerry Fallwell or Terry Jones are poor representatives of Christanity. Both Christianity and Islam teach peace and love towards your brothers and sisters but because of the actions of a vocal minority of fringe fanitics their respective religions are given a black eye. The average muslim is no more likely to be a terrorist just like the average christian is no more likely to be a child rapist. People need to stand up and reclaim their religion back from fanatics who hijack it for their own sinister agenda.

[Wudeverbro]

They kneel before them and use them to incite prayer, you call the figure of Jesus on a cross, but call it as it is its an IDOL esp since its not even the real face of Jesus. And Jesus is not God cannot be God and as such the worship of him is a false worship, remember the bible "there shall be no other god but me" well that says it all No Jesus, no crosses no saints nothing to that matter but God.

"There shall be no other God but me," but they are all the same being. I don't expect you to understand that though. The Trinity is hard for any Christian to explain, let alone any nonbeliever.

I think you are taking too literally the symbols that are in the church. Catholics pray to ™™™™™™ Mary, and that would be considered idol worship. Praying in front of statue of Jesus is not idol worshiping. It's impossible to actually pray to the real face of Jesus, so in essence you're saying, people should be praying at all because it's all idol worship.