Where does it end?

[geschrocks33]

If that were all true then why wasn't he the first pick, or the second pick... Look at the teams they are both on. Duchene is on a team that is playing well, has good goaltending, and other players who can score. Tavares is on a bad team with only a few decent named skilled players and really poor goaltending. It's like comparing apples to oranges. If they were both on the same team or the teams had similar records and stats then sure compare away, but until Tavares has decent skill around him it's going to reflect in his play.

Tavares is usually playing with Kyle Okposo, who is a GREAT young talent, and Matt Moulson who is also playing well.

Duchene usually plays with an assortment of people, but not Stastny, Hejduk, Wolski, etc. He's playing with guys like Ryan O'Reilly, T.J Galiardi, dudes like that, who are also Rookies, and they all are simply playing great.

Plus Tavares has Mark Streit behind him as a great D-Man to help out JT, the Avs have a "solid" D all around, but no real great guy back there, especially with Foote out for the time being.

Plus goaltending really means nothing with Tavares and Duchene

[cnshockey]

Who was the better player (in their primes) Mike Modano, or Brett Hull?

They were very different players, both HOFers. I could probably say most of those same things if I used them for the same comparisons. Modano was the much better all round player, but I'd take vintage Hull over vintage Modano any day of the week.

Better skater, better Penalty Killer, better passer, so what? Give me that 50 goal sniper any day of the week. Much easier to build around, much easier to market.

I agree with you here 100% besides the picking of Modano. And I don't see it as too far of a stretch for duchene to pot 50 at least once in his career.

If that were all true then why wasn't he the first pick, or the second pick... Look at the teams they are both on. Duchene is on a team that is playing well, has good goaltending, and other players who can score. Tavares is on a bad team with only a few decent named skilled players and really poor goaltending. It's like comparing apples to oranges. If they were both on the same team or the teams had similar records and stats then sure compare away, but until Tavares has decent skill around him it's going to reflect in his play.

Tavares was picked 1st because of his goal scoring talent. The Isles didn't care about anything else but the goal scoring and thats why they went with Tavares. He was also the bigger name going into the draft and they wanted to market him like crazy to sell tickets.

And how can you even bring up both teams? If you asked me before the season started who would be better, the Avs or Isles, I would say the Isles. The avs lost their captain, superstar, and best player in Joe Sakic. They had Craig Anderson, who is a journeyman goalie who goes from team to team and has finally settled into a #1 job and is playing well. The Isles got better from last season. ESPECIALLY in goal. I can't understand how you think having 3 SOLID NHL goalies is really poor goaltending. Roloson was amazing last year in Edmonton and stole games for them. He is continuing to play well this year. Biron is one of the best backups in the league, if not THE best. He is a guy who can come in for 30-40 games a season and give you a chance every game. And then you have Dipietro, who was the number 1 overall pick. He is no doubt a good goalie but has been hindered by injuries. Lets not forget that the Avs traded one of their other top forwards in Ryan Smyth for a d-man who was waived by one team and another d-man who suffers from vertigo. Also, heard of the Crosby effect? One great player makes others look good. Tavares has shown that with Matt Moulson but not really with anyone else.

[30ranfordfan]

I agree with you here 100% besides the picking of Modano. And I don't see it as too far of a stretch for duchene to pot 50 at least once in his career.

Fair enough. I picked Modano because he was (IMO) a HOF calibre player, at the same time as Hull. I didn't want to get into cream-of-the-crop superstars, and he was the one that popped into my head.

If Duchene or Tavaras end up having careers as good as Modano's was.... they'll be fortunate.

As for Duchene's ability to score 50 in a season - I suppose I wouldn't be shocked (not much will shock me anymore) but I'd be surprised. How many 50 goal scorers are there anymore? 3 in the same year is a lot. He's a very talented player, but does not strike me as someone who will ever end up as a top tier sniper / 50 goal type man. Tavares does.

Tavares was picked 1st because of his goal scoring talent. The Isles didn't care about anything else but the goal scoring and that's why they went with Tavares. He was also the bigger name going into the draft and they wanted to market him like crazy to sell tickets.

Better goal scorer, bigger name (therefore easier to market / sell tickets).... we've got two really good reasons to take him #1.

Guys who project as sure fire 50 goal scorers are rare (almost as rare as ripping up the league as a rookie). Tavares' talent puts him into a group with guys like Heatley and Kovalchuk. Duchene is much more likely to put up point totals like a Marc Savard, or Mike Richards (25-30 goals + 50-60 Assists).

You take Tavares #1, because players like him are more difficult to find. You take Hedman #2 because 6 foot 6 defenseman, with good offensive skills, are almost as hard to find. Duchene could easily be a consistent top-20 point guy in the league..... for a lot of years. There is nothing wrong with at all. I'm not trying to knock him, but his skill set doesn't make him nearly as special as Tavares.

And how can you even bring up both teams? If you asked me before the season started who would be better, the Avs or Isles, I would say the Isles. The avs lost their captain, superstar, and best player in Joe Sakic. They had Craig Anderson, who is a journeyman goalie who goes from team to team and has finally settled into a #1 job and is playing well. The Isles got better from last season. ESPECIALLY in goal. I can't understand how you think having 3 SOLID NHL goalies is really poor goaltending. Roloson was amazing last year in Edmonton and stole games for them. He is continuing to play well this year. Biron is one of the best backups in the league, if not THE best. He is a guy who can come in for 30-40 games a season and give you a chance every game. And then you have Dipietro, who was the number 1 overall pick. He is no doubt a good goalie but has been hindered by injuries. Lets not forget that the Avs traded one of their other top forwards in Ryan Smyth for a d-man who was waived by one team and another d-man who suffers from vertigo. Also, heard of the Crosby effect? One great player makes others look good. Tavares has shown that with Matt Moulson but not really with anyone else.

Isles vs Avs before the season began would have been an interesting debate. I probably would have picked them to be last in their respective divisions.

I think the point that it's a little bit easier for Duchene to look good on an Avs team that has been playing well is fair. Say what you want about the pre-season rankings.... the Avs are a good team, and the Isles are not. Duchene is surrounded by better players than Tavares is. Is that an excuse? No, that's just simply pointing out the obvious. I don't think anyone should be disappointed with how JT has played so far this season.

[cnshockey]

30ranfordfan you and I have very similar thoughts. I pretty much agree with everything you usually post.

And just think about this. Remember the Kansas City Islanders? well it was going to happen if the Isles continued on without a big name. Now with a big name in Tavares, they are selling more tickets and are more likely to get a new arena (don't believe they have a new one in the works to they?). Tavares was a way bigger name than Duchene and Hedman going into the draft and that is for sure one of the reasons the Isles drafted him. Remember, this is a business. You have to make money no matter what. If you don't, you're in Phoenix

[jagrnyr68]

this thread kinda of got into a duchene vs. tavares argument but my main point was that i don't see why tavares cards (especially yg) are still selling for as much as they were when they came out. i would understand if he was leading the team to wins, putting up really nice numbers, etc...but i used duchene as an example because he is doing as well as him and clearly doesn't get as much hobby love as him just because tavares has more hype. but not my problem cause i'm not throwing $80 at his yg...and i don't see them retaining value. i believe i said earlier that there are like 2x amount of yg's as there were in 05-06, which means when crosby blew up there wasn't 15 yg's ending in one day as opposed to now. so just my opinion, i would be very surprised to see his yg's selling for this much even in 2 to 3 years from now.

[30ranfordfan]

Two quick comments.....

cns - Love the last post. It is absolutly a business, and Tavares may do for the NYI what Crosby did for the Pens.... as in, make it a profitable business again (a Cup is still a LONG way off on the Island).

jagr - Give it another 3 months. There is still really only two decent rookies on the market: Series 1, and Black Diamond. Once SPx, SPA, Trilogy, etc all come out, you'll see the Tavares drop. (That's when I'm waiting to buy mine).

The Tavares vs Duchene comparison is a good one for the conversation though (you're right, the discussion really did change though). They're having pretty similar seasons, stats why, but Tavares is worth 3x more. I'll just re-state the fact that being a "big name" and all the hype that is behind his name (vs Duchene) means that he's selling 3x higher.

[game8]

BAck in 05-06 there were alot of young guns constantly ending at the same time as the product was new. I remember selling my first one and there was a couple of pages at any given time of crosby young guns.

[andrewconnors9]

wth, 900$ for the BD Ruby? whoever put that up had a party after the sale lol, and why, because its #1 / 100?