Jesus & a relationship with Him

[boba]

The problem with that is that so many people claim to have had their lives, their personalities, and everything about their very existence fundamentally transformed by this supposed supernatural being, via an intimate, personal, esoteric and inexplicable connection with same...and then they go on being the same grubby scumbags they always were, only now they're more smug about it.

What are you expecting? When they are saved should they sparkle like Edward? Or maybe have a halo on their head?

Evan after your saved bad things happen to you, you might have a bad attitude some days.

[boba]

Wow, that was a super double post, sorry.

[gatorboymike]

There's not much I can say to that, either.

People can change themselves, you know. Most of us have something we feel we're supposed to be doing that we're not doing for whatever reason, until something motivates us to actually do it. Religion is one of those things, but not the only thing. And when religion does motivate you to do something, it's easy to confuse your own decision for something externally imposed upon you from a god.

Once again, if you're the one doing all the work in your "relationship," you don't really have a relationship.

[gatorboymike]

What are you expecting? When they are saved should they sparkle like Edward? Or maybe have a halo on their head?

Funny you should ask, because having some kind of clear and unambiguous means by which to determine if someone is "saved" would be great evidence for god's existence.

Christians run around proclaiming that they are saved and true, while other Christians who don't agree with their opinions and politics are unsaved and false. They all claim to be exclusively beloved by, and acting on behalf of, their god, while they're all doing and believing different things. They're all telling each other "I'm saved and you're not. God agrees with me and not you." And to outsiders like myself, that just looks like a bunch of small children telling each other "I'm better than you!"

Evan after your saved bad things happen to you, you might have a bad attitude some days.

Then how is being "saved" useful? What DOES it do? What is it good for? If it doesn't make your life any easier or make you any better of a person, then it's not really anything, and for all intents and purposes, the initial good feeling you get from being "saved" is no different from the initial good feeling you get from buying a new car.

[boba]

Funny you should ask, because having some kind of clear and unambiguous means by which to determine if someone is "saved" would be great evidence for god's existence.

Christians run around proclaiming that they are saved and true, while other Christians who don't agree with their opinions and politics are unsaved and false. They all claim to be exclusively beloved by, and acting on behalf of, their god, while they're all doing and believing different things. They're all telling each other "I'm saved and you're not. God agrees with me and not you." And to outsiders like myself, that just looks like a bunch of small children telling each other "I'm better than you!"



Then how is being "saved" useful? What DOES it do? What is it good for? If it doesn't make your life any easier or make you any better of a person, then it's not really anything, and for all intents and purposes, the initial good feeling you get from being "saved" is no different from the initial good feeling you get from buying a new car.

It should make you a person who tries harder to do good, just because some religious people are hypocrites doesn't mean religion is wrong.

As to what it does for you. For me I don't really have to worry about my death or what will happen to me after because I know were I'm going. I have an extra family in the Church. I stay away from a lot of trouble I could have been in from sin I have avoided. I know that my sins our forgiven. This all and much more.

But I don't really understand why you want to know what benefits it gives you. Do you live your life doing just whats best for yourself? The Christian life isn't about the benefits in this life, it's about going to heaven and bringing as many as you can with you. A lot of people have died for the faith in the past.

[gatorboymike]

It should make you a person who tries harder to do good, just because some religious people are hypocrites doesn't mean religion is wrong.

It means either they have not actually experienced the transformative effect of religion, or there is no transformative effect of religion. That gets back into the whole "I'm a true Christian and you're a false Christian" dilemma. What religion is, is a mass of generally well-intentioned but weak-willed people being led around and manipulated at their own expense, by and for the benefit of, an elite group of strong-willed but ill-intentioned people.

As to what it does for you. For me I don't really have to worry about my death or what will happen to me after because I know were I'm going. I have an extra family in the Church. I stay away from a lot of trouble I could have been in from sin I have avoided. I know that my sins our forgiven. This all and much more.

A sense of community is fine. As for the rest of that stuff, you don't actually know that. You just believe it. My whole question is how are we supposed to know? No matter how much you might want something untrue to become true, it won't. No matter how much you believe that an untrue thing is true, it's still untrue. Reality always wins.

But I don't really understand why you want to know what benefits it gives you. Do you live your life doing just whats best for yourself? The Christian life isn't about the benefits in this life, it's about going to heaven and bringing as many as you can with you. A lot of people have died for the faith in the past.

Well isn't it convenient that Christianity offers nothing in this life, the only point of contact you or I or anyone else will ever have with reality. Corrupt and evil men have convinced you to give up your life on earth for their benefit, by promising you something they can't deliver after your life ends, which, also conveniently, there's no way to prove or disprove.

No, I don't do only what is best for myself. But I do ask myself what there is to gain and what there is to lose before I make big decisions. What is there to gain by becoming a Christian? Nothing. Well, maybe a smug sense of self-importance and a sense of community with people I find unpleasant. What is there to lose? Everything.

And by the way, the fact that people have died for it doesn't make it true. Not any more than the fact that the 9/11 terrorists were willing to die for Islam makes Islam true.

[boba]

Actually I do know, how do you believe the world and universe came about?

[StainLss]

The problem with that is that so many people claim to have had their lives, their personalities, and everything about their very existence fundamentally transformed by this supposed supernatural being, via an intimate, personal, esoteric and inexplicable connection with same...and then they go on being the same grubby scumbags they always were, only now they're more smug about it.

Mike, I agree with you 100% which I never have before. Anyway I'm a Christian, so that is where my opinion comes from.

As a Christian I see A LOT of people claim to be Christians but they go on living like everyone else in the world. they continue to be the same person. Christianity is about Repentance, which is so much more than saying you are sorry for what you have done. It's changing how you live your life. Now does that mean they are perfect? No not at all, it means they are working on bettering themselves. A lot of people say they know the moment they became saved. But that is not only the wrong way of thinking, it's just ill informed. Salvation is not a moment, it is a journey. You DON'T just say a prayer up at the alter and become saved, so you can continue to live how you were before guilt free.

You have to work at following the BIBLICAL TRUTH OF GOD. Too many people get caught up in the whole "Joel Olsteen" mindset "oh God loves me so I can do A,B,C, and D and still go to heaven because I said that prayer when I was 10."

Mike I know you are an atheist, so you know what it is like to see people saying "oh God says this and God says that" "you can do this.. but not that" Then they do those same things but claim it's okay because Jesus died for them. That is 100% wrong

God didn't send Jesus to die for us, so we could keep living like scumbags, we are supposed to follow his laws. Anyone who says God is okay with me doing these things because "God is love" is totally off base and doesn't understand God's Love. We only have a human interpretation of it.

I see this every day Mike, and it bothers me and I am a Christian. The church is full of Hypocrites. Say one thing and do another, while Christians still sin we are not supposed to be okay with it and let it continue freely. We are supposed to fight it.

I know for a fact you will NEVER EVER see some one preaching God's word that does not break God's law. (besides Jesus) Christians need to acknowledge that and try to move past what they are sinning with. We need to look to Jesus and his word for guidance, if we look to people we will always be let down.

Sorry for the long post... I hope it kinda made sense
-John

[bangsportscards]

Christianity is easy.

And it can be challenging.

God is always speaking to all of us. We aren't always able to hear.

He want over ride your free will.

And a strong will apart from God is nothing more than pride. Actually life like this is really hard.

It's nothing to become a Christian & being born again is the key.

The next step after becoming a Christian is letting the Holy Spirit super naturally transform your inside being.

The Christians that are hypocrites are sadly missing is some area of the life God has provided. Or perhaps they are misled and not even a Christian, not being born again.

Christians are blessed by a loving God.

How can you not love Someone who gives you a more effective life, helps you with power to deal with issues, then gives you truth and guidelines to live victorious in all areas of life; family, relationships, finances, health, etc. This is the biblical God.

It's an awesome journey & the best thing available.

Every person needs solutions to life. It's when we go trying to figure things out in the wrong places that disorder and confusion enters.

It's all good in the end.

Praise Jesus!

Brian

[gatorboymike]

Actually I do know, how do you believe the world and universe came about?

Well, to quote a popular YouTuber, "If you can't show it, then you don't know it, and you shouldn't say that you do."

And I don't know how the universe came about, because our current understanding of physics breaks down beyond Planck time.