Increased Competition Could Refuel the Hobby?

[centrehice]

i think it will be fine with UD at the helm. If anyone has to have an exclusive, Upper Deck makes the most sense. I am not sure where the complaints are with UD. They make all of the best hockey cards that sell for the highest prices. They create value. A Mackinnon Ice /99 is close to 1k on the market. Thats incredible. Sp Authentic & The Cup rookies sell very well. UD Series 1 & 2 are incredible sets to collect. Upper Deck will probably make about 14-16 products next year which is about 10 less than this year if you include Panini. Sounds like an improvement to me. Nobody wants unlicensed airbrushed cards. We collect for a reason. To buy cards of players on NHL teams with logos and team names. Anything else is just 2nd rate.

ITGU makes nicer cards than UD, and this year the Prism cards from Panini were nicer than anything Upper Deck has ever manufactured. You cannot spout that UD adds value. How can they add value when your ROI on things like The Cup are 10 and 15%. Siting one small example of a payoff card like a MacKinnon Ice, does not equate to added value over the course of every box pulled where there is a chance for one to be available.

We get it, for some reason you hate ITGU, and Panini. Didn't you just profess to be starting out collecting Hockey? Then what would you know of ITGU? What experience do you have with BAP and ITGU? Why all the unnecessary hate for competition that UD so badly needs to give alternate choices to years of bad habits.

I am still waiting for an SPx Redemption from 2001. Just some of the customer service bad habits that UD still has.

[draeded7]

I know a lot of you guys are arguing that value isn't something that shouldn't be emphasized when companies manufacture cards, but I'd have to disagree. Breaking boxes is fun, and since I personally collect one team and a few players, I would like to be able to sell the cards (especially anything higher end) at respectable price. If I bought anything like UD the Cup or Panini Prime I would be a lot more inclined to purchase the product if I were to receive a 50-75% return on investment when I pulled cards that didn't fit my personal collecting interests.

I sort of have this fantasy where there are multiple card manufacturers (IE UD, Panini, Topps, an unknown party etc.) that compete across all multiple sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey) that produce a few sets of each sport in a specific niche, thus making the market much more competitive and a lot more fun for collectors. This would also keep companies making comparable revenues (obviously a quasi-monopoly is going to allow them to have higher profits) to what they do now.

Unfortunately, this fantasy is essentially dead with organizations like the NHL granting exclusives licenses. I enjoyed the last few years products like 2011-2012 Panini Prime and some of the UD stuff that were cool to collect. I'm just afraid I'm going to be pushed out of the hobby when I become bored with the relabeled products that UD will push and the ridiculous prices they charge.

[centrehice]

I know a lot of you guys are arguing that value isn't something that shouldn't be emphasized when companies manufacture cards, but I'd have to disagree. Breaking boxes is fun, and since I personally collect one team and a few players, I would like to be able to sell the cards (especially anything higher end) at respectable price. If I bought anything like UD the Cup or Panini Prime I would be a lot more inclined to purchase the product if I were to receive a 50-75% return on investment when I pulled cards that didn't fit my personal collecting interests.

I sort of have this fantasy where there are multiple card manufacturers (IE UD, Panini, Topps, an unknown party etc.) that compete across all multiple sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey) that produce a few sets of each sport in a specific niche, thus making the market much more competitive and a lot more fun for collectors. This would also keep companies making comparable revenues (obviously a quasi-monopoly is going to allow them to have higher profits) to what they do now.

Unfortunately, this fantasy is essentially dead with organizations like the NHL granting exclusives licenses. I enjoyed the last few years products like 2011-2012 Panini Prime and some of the UD stuff that were cool to collect. I'm just afraid I'm going to be pushed out of the hobby when I become bored with the relabeled products that UD will push and the ridiculous prices they charge.

Did you not collect in the 90's?, the entire decade was this. It was never a fantasy, but a reality which we all loved. Now it's garbage.

[draeded7]

Did you not collect in the 90's?, the entire decade was this. It was never a fantasy, but a reality which we all loved. Now it's garbage.

Yeah but the hobby has changed since the 90s. In this day and age, would you rather buy from a company that produces limited sets with well-designed cards that hold value or a company that overproduces sets and slaps on sticker autos so they can say they get X amount of hits per box? I feel like there could be money made from a small company that knows how to create demand for their product.

[30ranfordfan]

It's not just the NHL. I believe all four of the major North Americian sports now have an exclusive license. Baseball, I think, maybe someone (UD??) is still makeing PA, but not league, licensed cards... while Topps has a full license (i.e. they use logos).

Value is absolutely something that should be considered.

You can't hand over a $100 bill, and consistantly recieve a $20 bill for it. There is some element of risk to busting wax (which is part of the fun) but this is basically the truth about most products:

- Most boxes will return below 50% ROI
- Most "case hits" don't change that
- If you buy enough boxes, you're bound to hit something really valuable.... but it probably doesn't make up for the bad breaks.


Upper Deck Series 1, classic example. It's a very popular set, reasonable to afford ($70 per box @ release) and loaded with "hits". Typical box gives you 6 YGs, 2 Jersey cards, a bunch of Canvas inserts, and a few other inserts (Hockey Heroes, Shining Stars). You've got about a 50/50 change of pulling something "case hit" like from each box.... a case would normally have a Hockey Heroes Header, a Painting, a Patch card, and autograph, and a couple of acetates..... plus there are SP'd Canvas cards.

So what?

Unless you hit a MacKinnon YG AND one of those case hits, you're taking a hit on $$$. Unless you pull a couple of the "better" YG's (Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Hertle) and really good inserts plus a case hit, you're taking a big hit.

It's not that your $70 purchase has netted you $50 worth of cards. It's that your $70 purchase netted you $25 worth of cards. THAT is NORMAL.

Now, I like this set. I buy a few boxes of it every year (and again of Series 2) and I find most the stuff is very easy to trade (and keep building your set) so this is how I would look at it:

Buy 4 boxes of each of Series 1 & 2... $70 x 8 = $560. You'll have enough stuff you don't want, that you can trade, and finish up MOST of the set, provided you were lucky enough to hit the bigge rookies yourself. You'll probably spend another $75 finishing off the YGs. Most of them can be had for $2 or less, but you'll have to pay $10+ for some. $50 for the bigger ones (and in some years, more than that).

You'll probably also end up with a few "case hits" that you don't want, and you might be able to sell to get a bit of your money back. (I also like the Hockey Heroes, so that's a couple of case hits I won't sell, if I actually pull them). Assuming you did a good job trading, and were able to sell a bit while buying.... you can put that whole set togther for $500-$600. Is that a good deal? Well, I could buy it for $450.... but this is MUCH more fun, so I don't think it's all that bad. That kinda cost is fine.

However, if you're just buying those boxes to flip the cards - you're going to get killed.

This is one of the BETTER products on the market, for overall value. Artifacts, Black Diamond, SPx, SPGU, SPA, Trilogy, The Cup, etc, etc, etc: You will either pull a card that's worth the price of your box, or more..... or you will take a complete bath on the purchase. Most $500 tins of the The Cup return less than $200 worth of cards. You'd be luck to flip the contents of $120 trilogy box for $50. SPGU? Forget it. SPx... this year in particular.... is laughable.


But what is Upper Deck, or anyone, to do?

If they cut out the number of GU and Auto hits... and lowered the price of boxes... we'd all be complaining that there isn't enough hits in the box. It's lose/lose for the manufacturer.

I know a lot of you guys are arguing that value isn't something that shouldn't be emphasized when companies manufacture cards, but I'd have to disagree. Breaking boxes is fun, and since I personally collect one team and a few players, I would like to be able to sell the cards (especially anything higher end) at respectable price. If I bought anything like UD the Cup or Panini Prime I would be a lot more inclined to purchase the product if I were to receive a 50-75% return on investment when I pulled cards that didn't fit my personal collecting interests.

I sort of have this fantasy where there are multiple card manufacturers (IE UD, Panini, Topps, an unknown party etc.) that compete across all multiple sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey) that produce a few sets of each sport in a specific niche, thus making the market much more competitive and a lot more fun for collectors. This would also keep companies making comparable revenues (obviously a quasi-monopoly is going to allow them to have higher profits) to what they do now.

Unfortunately, this fantasy is essentially dead with organizations like the NHL granting exclusives licenses. I enjoyed the last few years products like 2011-2012 Panini Prime and some of the UD stuff that were cool to collect. I'm just afraid I'm going to be pushed out of the hobby when I become bored with the relabeled products that UD will push and the ridiculous prices they charge.

[MW Connection]

ITGU makes nicer cards than UD, and this year the Prism cards from Panini were nicer than anything Upper Deck has ever manufactured. You cannot spout that UD adds value. How can they add value when your ROI on things like The Cup are 10 and 15%. Siting one small example of a payoff card like a MacKinnon Ice, does not equate to added value over the course of every box pulled where there is a chance for one to be available.

We get it, for some reason you hate ITGU, and Panini. Didn't you just profess to be starting out collecting Hockey? Then what would you know of ITGU? What experience do you have with BAP and ITGU? Why all the unnecessary hate for competition that UD so badly needs to give alternate choices to years of bad habits.

I am still waiting for an SPx Redemption from 2001. Just some of the customer service bad habits that UD still has.

You mean Prizm. It is not Upper Deck's fault that people continue to pay absurd prices to break boxes like the The Cup. Until collector's take a stand and wait for price drops this will happen. 10-15% return I do not think that is true. ITG just feels second rate to me like Press Pass in football. No logos or team names and sub par designs. I think it is cool how all of their cards are game used and not event worn though.

[Mack26]

I have an interesting view that maybe now that there will only be the one licensed manufacture could the product get back to there old time lines and not be delayed cause the autos will probably be cut down from having 2 licensed manufactures??? I think very good chance.

[centrehice]

Yeah but the hobby has changed since the 90s. In this day and age, would you rather buy from a company that produces limited sets with well-designed cards that hold value or a company that overproduces sets and slaps on sticker autos so they can say they get X amount of hits per box? I feel like there could be money made from a small company that knows how to create demand for their product.

You are trying to shift the goal-posts on me here. You only talked about many companies, producing a broad variety of cards across different Sports. You didn't say anything about sticker auto inserts, x amount of hits, and the other stuff you added. Please try to stay on the original topic of which you posted.

[centrehice]

You mean Prizm. It is not Upper Deck's fault that people continue to pay absurd prices to break boxes like the The Cup. Until collector's take a stand and wait for price drops this will happen. 10-15% return I do not think that is true. ITG just feels second rate to me like Press Pass in football. No logos or team names and sub par designs. I think it is cool how all of their cards are game used and not event worn though.

Then you just agreed with me. ITGU just feels 2nd rate? You don't own any, yet it feels 2nd rate? I'm done talking to you, it's not worth the effort. You have an opinion based on No Experience.

There is nothing 2nd rate about anything ITGU or BAP has made in the past. Were you even aware that ITGU and BAP were licensed in the past? .

[draeded7]

You are trying to shift the goal-posts on me here. You only talked about many companies, producing a broad variety of cards across different Sports. You didn't say anything about sticker auto inserts, x amount of hits, and the other stuff you added. Please try to stay on the original topic of which you posted.

That last sentence stung a little haha. I'm not here to fight you, but I can see how you thought I changed the game with my response (I wasn't as clear as I thought I was being). What I meant by saying the marketplace would be more competitive with multiple companies is that the company who is able to create the highest demand for their would be the more successful company. How can they do this? One way controlling the supply. Then in my response I gave the example of which box you would rather purchase. I was saying we can play this supply/demand game now that we have learned lessons in terms of what oversupply does to the hobby (first sentence). That is all. No hard feelings.