Increased Competition Could Refuel the Hobby?

[draeded7]

I just thought I'd ask these questions out of curiosity to see what guys who have been around the hobby for a while think.

I know that hockey recently got exclusive with Upper Deck over licensing of logos to essentially create a monopoly (boo), but do you guys think that if these barriers to entry were eliminated, other start up companies could come in and revitalize the hobby?

What do you guys think card companies could do to generally increase demand for hockey cards again? Decrease amount of cards produced or just that of "hits"? Better customer service?

I just recently started getting back into the hobby after taking a long break (mid-2000s collector) and see the plethora of problems that trading card manufacturing companies have produced, and the future looks much bleaker with Upper Deck gaining an exclusive contract with the NHL. I just want to know opinions of more seasoned collectors as to what they think the hobby can do to sort of regain an audience they have been losing.

[centrehice]

If there is no chance at any license anytime soon, I don't see why any new companies would choose to invest. Those who only buy cards from companies that licensed, are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

People that do not buy licensed cards means a better deal for everybody else. In terms of revitalizing the hobby. It's gone down the slippery slope of 3 and 5 cards per box. I don't see any hope for the hobby.

It's ruined, even from the Lockout, the change has been for the worst by far.

[draeded7]

What about if they used licenses from national teams, much like panini has done with baseball? Do you think someone would be able to work there way into a license and compete in the market?

Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I feel like if someone could break into the card collecting world using innovative approaches and work their way into a license it could help the hobby tremendously.

[Cunnuc]

I don't see that happening. NHLPA gives out the liscensing and Upper Deck will have sole possession of it for years. Even if someone did come in, NHLPA would only allow certain sets to be made that would rival or even duplicate Upper Deck in some sets. You're simply not allowed to think outside the box. Bringing in another company like Panini will flood the market with quite a few sets of needless or unwanted stuff, yet Upper Deck producing 18 sets a year will also weaken the market in a matter of 2+ years.

I Couldn't see another ITG-like company coming in and making a huge dent in the market in the first couple years at least. Maybe with 3 companies like Topps or something coming in two produce 2-3 sets a year and you would have an increase in competition and some-what revival of the hobby in some aspect? Still don't see it happening. I will stick with what I've been opening the last 2-3 years.

[MW Connection]

i think it will be fine with UD at the helm. If anyone has to have an exclusive, Upper Deck makes the most sense. I am not sure where the complaints are with UD. They make all of the best hockey cards that sell for the highest prices. They create value. A Mackinnon Ice /99 is close to 1k on the market. Thats incredible. Sp Authentic & The Cup rookies sell very well. UD Series 1 & 2 are incredible sets to collect. Upper Deck will probably make about 14-16 products next year which is about 10 less than this year if you include Panini. Sounds like an improvement to me. Nobody wants unlicensed airbrushed cards. We collect for a reason. To buy cards of players on NHL teams with logos and team names. Anything else is just 2nd rate.

[reoddai]

OP:

I think that there is a general fear for a return to the 90's over production, which is a shame. We saw a lot of neat stuff then. Heck, UD came out of the 90's over production era. I think that the problem with demand then was that people who weren't hockey card enthusiasts came in and propped up the market. People who speculate come in, drive prices up, then leave. The die hard enthusiasts are what remain, but don't spend as the speculators did. I don't think anything needs to be done to increase demand. Demand is just fine. What I would prefer is to see the hockey card producers cater to the market that exists & not the speculators. Score I thought was a great example of that. 1$ packs. Chance for a good hit (IMO it had too many autos). Extremely well designed cards. UD S1 & S2 also fit. I would love it to be cheaper & with less insert subsets. At the same time, less speculators mean smaller businesses. Can card companies do what they do with less employees? I have no idea. ITG does great concept, but they need better designs. UD has great designs but feels like they don't listen. Its kind of a shame that ITG didn't accept a 2 product license. I would have loved to see what they could do. Or even another start up.

i think it will be fine with UD at the helm. If anyone has to have an exclusive, Upper Deck makes the most sense.

Agree

I am not sure where the complaints are with UD. They make all of the best hockey cards that sell for the highest prices. They create value. A Mackinnon Ice /99 is close to 1k on the market. Thats incredible. Sp Authentic & The Cup rookies sell very well. UD Series 1 & 2 are incredible sets to collect.

Not everyone like's UD style in all cases. For example, UD S1 & S2, I agree often look phenomenal. SPA and Cup that you mentioned also have a unique style. But there are many other sets that feel like they are derivatives. I would much rather have UD do fewer sets, but do them well, and then allow other people to try out different designs.

Upper Deck will probably make about 14-16 products next year which is about 10 less than this year if you include Panini. Sounds like an improvement to me.

Here's some history for you:
UD Exclusive:
2005: 24 releases
2006: 37 Releases
2007: 38 Releases
2008: 38 Releases
2009: 31 Releases

Those totals also included smaller insert sets (like the Expo autos) which most people will probably say don't count. Those still only account for about 10 releases and UD generally releases 22-24 products. Feel free to go count here:
http://sports.upperdeck.com/collecto...rsets.aspx?s=3

Nobody wants unlicensed airbrushed cards. We collect for a reason. To buy cards of players on NHL teams with logos and team names. Anything else is just 2nd rate.

Just because that's what you collect, it doesn't mean that's what everyone collects. You should go check out the custom card areas. Some of those unlicensed airbrushed card would be many UD cards to shame.

Cheers,
reoddai

[sedinfan]

i think it will be fine with UD at the helm. If anyone has to have an exclusive, Upper Deck makes the most sense. I am not sure where the complaints are with UD. They make all of the best hockey cards that sell for the highest prices. They create value. A Mackinnon Ice /99 is close to 1k on the market. Thats incredible. Sp Authentic & The Cup rookies sell very well.

Whether creating value is a good or bad thing, that's an interesting question. Maybe good for people who are in it to make money... perhaps not so much for the pure collectors?

Nobody wants unlicensed airbrushed cards. We collect for a reason. To buy cards of players on NHL teams with logos and team names. Anything else is just 2nd rate.

While I've mostly stayed in the background reading a lot of your UD cheerleading comments, please don't presume to speak for everybody. To say that "Nobody" wants unlicensed cards is utterly false - it took me a while to warm up to ITG, but in my opinion (which others are free to disagree with) I think they make by far the most fun products to break, and I for sure want their unlicensed cards, especially Lord Stanley's Mug. We absolutely do collect for reasons, but everyone's reasons are their own. I probably have more UD cards in my PC than any other manufacturer, simply because they've produced the most cards of the Sedins, and I count many of them amongst my favourites, but they (like all the manufacturers) have produced their share of duds. I'll continue to pick up Sedin singles UD puts out, but I've yet to see a set of theirs that appeals to me from a set collecting perspective.

[Frendo]

Wonder how many do regret now that they paid 10k for RNH cards from UpperDeck...how about Yakupov?
UpperDeck rookies is brutal overpriced and not all rookies can becoming superstars like Crosby, Malkin, Toews etc...
The problem is that all have too high execptions of ALL ROOKIES who plays in NHL.

I laughed when I saw that a lot paid +$800-$1200 for The Cups of players like Coutrier, Hodgson, Scheifele etc for 2-3 years when they was ULTRA-hot then....
UpperDeck-fanboys is for sure one of kind, no way that we regular collectors should paying +$1000 for a B, C or D-rated rookies.
Not all 1st, 2nd or 3rd round pick will ending up becoming stars, just amazing that all makes same mistake year after year, but it's their own choice to throwing their
$ in the water good for nothing...no way that RNH will ever be selling at +$5.000-$10.000 range again...maybe $500 when he has retired then for his ARP's.

I really like UpperDeck but their products is just too grossly overvalued because their LA-based fanbouys seems to having unlimited pockets and overpays 10x-100x or even 250x
for UD's high-ends so of course everything ends with that all is also tying to sell their UD cards for insane $ when we regular collectors don't have the $....
Seriously how UD's Young Guns can selling with those $ when the print runs of those cards may exceed 10.000 each ones?

I think that they should making max 10-15 sets each years, 25-35 is just ridiculously too many!
The market is already waay too watered down for long time ago, too many cards/sets/variations to chase unless if you're not rich like some certain collectors does....
UD's pricing and their second market value combined with all those endless shipping rate hikes kills the hobby unless you lives in USA....

[30ranfordfan]

I just thought I'd ask these questions out of curiosity to see what guys who have been around the hobby for a while think.

I know that hockey recently got exclusive with Upper Deck over licensing of logos to essentially create a monopoly (boo), but do you guys think that if these barriers to entry were eliminated, other start up companies could come in and revitalize the hobby?

What do you guys think card companies could do to generally increase demand for hockey cards again? Decrease amount of cards produced or just that of "hits"? Better customer service?

I just recently started getting back into the hobby after taking a long break (mid-2000s collector) and see the plethora of problems that trading card manufacturing companies have produced, and the future looks much bleaker with Upper Deck gaining an exclusive contract with the NHL. I just want to know opinions of more seasoned collectors as to what they think the hobby can do to sort of regain an audience they have been losing.

I think none of that is very realistic. I think more unlicensed companies wouldn't work (ITG has their market, but I doubt anyone could jump on that train). Less hits would mean cheaper produts, and UD's pocket book can't take that. Less products would mean less revenue too, which is also a big non-starter for them.

I agree, the future looks much bleaker now that we've gone back to an exclusive. There's been a lot of nicer looking stuff the last couple of years - from both UD and Panini - and now our exclusive manufacturer can go back to being lazy.

What about if they used licenses from national teams, much like panini has done with baseball? Do you think someone would be able to work there way into a license and compete in the market?

Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I feel like if someone could break into the card collecting world using innovative approaches and work their way into a license it could help the hobby tremendously.

Upper Deck has the exclusive rights to use Team Canada's logos (they did an entire set last year, that was just Team Canada). I remember reading before that USA Hockey either won't grant a license, or maybe it's the money they're asking for is so crazy, that nobody will bite.

i think it will be fine with UD at the helm. If anyone has to have an exclusive, Upper Deck makes the most sense. I am not sure where the complaints are with UD. They make all of the best hockey cards that sell for the highest prices. They create value. A Mackinnon Ice /99 is close to 1k on the market. Thats incredible. Sp Authentic & The Cup rookies sell very well. UD Series 1 & 2 are incredible sets to collect. Upper Deck will probably make about 14-16 products next year which is about 10 less than this year if you include Panini. Sounds like an improvement to me. Nobody wants unlicensed airbrushed cards. We collect for a reason. To buy cards of players on NHL teams with logos and team names. Anything else is just 2nd rate.

First, I do not except that an exclusive license something that had to happen. It's something the NHLPA may have decied was better for their business, but it is NOT better for collectors. Even if you only buy UD products, you're better off buying them in a market where Panini exists... becuase it forces Upper Deck to be better. Believe me. They stopped trying for the better part of the last exclusive, and only recently really started upping their game again.

Please come back and look at this post near the end of the next season. This notion that an exclusive manufacturer means less product is simply untrue. Upper Deck will not make 14-16 releases next year. They will be pumping out two new sets per month. You will still see over 20 RCs of the biggest name rookies next year. The market will be as flooded as ever.

And please, if you're going to speak about unlicensed cards, use facts in your statements. "I don't want unlicensed airbrushed cards" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. To suggest 'nobody' wants them ignore the fact that ITG's products sell very well.... becuase a LOT of people want them. Some of us like Autographs, and we like being able to add new players to our collection.... not the same bunch that were used in every single set last year. Some of us like game used materal, instead of photoshoot and other "event worn" stuff. Some of us like Rookie Cards, but they don't need to be the single focus of every single box we crack.

[ChuckNorrisFearsS]

I am not sure where the complaints are with UD. They make all of the best hockey cards that sell for the highest prices.

Poorly designed products, lack of thought and effort in themes, sticker autos on expensive products, redemptions, etc. You worship UD, we get it. WE GET IT!

Nobody wants unlicensed airbrushed cards. We collect for a reason. To buy cards of players on NHL teams with logos and team names. Anything else is just 2nd rate.

Give it a rest already on the bashing ITG. You don't like them, that's your opinion but you're becoming a zealot with this constant preaching against their methods. Move on. You think nobody wants unlicensed cards with airbrushed logos. That's incorrect. I think closer to being accurate is the statement that nobody wants to read the same bashing over and over and over about how terrible ITG is.