The education system thread

[WilyWestbrook0]

I was interested by JeRmZ's post in Yanksfan' thread where he said we should spend more on education, so I thought an education thread might make for some good discussion.

I have mixed feelings on education spending. I think a lot of the spending currently done on it is wasteful. A classic example regards books. If someone can give me a good argument on why we apparently "need" new books on language arts and mathematics every three or so years - two subjects whose basic rules essentially never change - then I'd like to hear it, because I think far too much is spent on them.

If we are going to increase spending, I'd prefer it on more generalized restructuring of our schools, because I question the efficacy of additional "special" programs we see in many of them. For instance, do we really need gifted programs because many children are bored by needless repetition of basic concepts in certain subjects, or should we do something rather radical and actually restructure the way grades are set up and subjects are taught? I read in Parade magazine of a Colorado school which has been structured to teach students based on their grade level performance instead of lumping all kids into standard age-based grades. There is no need to create programs for "advanced" and "slow" students there because they are now taught based on their performance levels. The results so far are promising. It would be great to see other schools try this method.

Here are a few other radical propositions I have which probably won't take effect on a large scale, but might actually help:

* Have colleges prepare students for the working world no matter what their field of study is.

I don't need to repeat my situation here as I've ranted about it more than enough, but I know I am not the only one in this boat. Many degrees in the liberal arts are interesting as fields of abstract study, but have little application outside of academia. Even entry level jobs require certain technical skills which most liberal arts graduates do not possess. Internships are not enough; the preparation needs to be more thorough. Either abolish the liberal arts, or combine traditional fields of study with the more practical applications of it (the latter idea seems best).

* Consider strong changes to high school curricula, as high school has become an incredibly ineffectual transition period between middle school and college.

My personal experience alone is a testament to how unimportant high school has become in terms of how it is taught. Prior to college, I was home-schooled during all grade years except Kindergarten, 4th, and 7th grade (and no, I was not home-schooled for "religious" reasons - I was home-schooled upon recommendation of a public school teacher who said they could not meet the demands of someone whose language skills were "too far beyond" those of other students). During the high school years, I had a completely self-designed curriculum where I taught myself each subject with exception to math (my dad taught that to me since it was my weakest subject and one where I could not teach myself its principles and applications explicitly). In other words, I was an autodidact who did a lot less busywork compared to other people my age (many traditionalists might even consider my curriculum and hours during that period to be extremely lax). I didn't even have a "senior" year; I simply took the GED just after I turned 17, and I started community college immediately with a scholarship. I had no trouble whatsoever passing the GED and maintaining a high college GPA in spite of this seeming "lack" of high school preparation. If someone with a 120ish IQ can do this, whose so-called giftedness extends little beyond language facility, I can't imagine how unbearably boring and needless standardized high school must be for those with 130+ IQs who excel in all subjects.

I think that's enough of a start on this discussion, so I am interested in hearing what you'd like to see done with education. I am sure most agree that it has some serious flaws right now.

[Bonds_25]

Like many issues in this country, throwing money at something is hardly the solution. Certainly funding can be an issue in several of those issues but what matters is how the money is spent.

Personally I feel like we need better teachers, if that means raising their salaries then so be it.

Having colleges prepare students for the working world is a difficult task. There is nothing they can do that will be like the actual experience you will have in the working world. That said, the business program at my university (CSUS) is supposedly designed to prepare us for the work world. I've heard many times that several local employers and business owners feel our program produces much more prepared students than other local schools. In almost every business class I have ever taken we have been required to do a group project because they feel like we need to be prepared to work with others. I hate group projects just as much as anyone but I do feel like they have some value. I've also had several projects on things like company analyses, business plans, conflict resolutions, etc etc. So I feel like I've at least dipped my toe in some of the tools I'll be exposed to in the working world. But the business major is a much more feasible major to teach the actual application of it than some of the majors you were talking about.

To me if you want specific job-related training, then go to a trade school in whatever field you are interested in. You will definitely be better prepared for a specific field or job, but you will lose out on some of the things a university education will give you.

[JeRmZ]

JammingJames - I don't know much about the structure of our education system, what books are ordered, how students are lumped together and whatever else but I do know that something needs to be done and done soon. I read a stat the other day in a technology magazine that the US education system is considered at the least 10 years behind places like China and Japan ... to me that's horrible!! How can we ever begin to compete in one of the fastest growing fields if we can't educate our children on those fields properly?

I agree with Bonds that it should start with teachers. Teachers today are grossly underpaid and it's causing a serious drop in teacher population. Who wants to spend four or more years of college and thousands and thousands of dollars to get out and get a $30,000 a year job teaching?

[WilyWestbrook0]

Bonds - Good response. I agree that it's harder for some majors to have practical implementations added, which is why I can see the argument for some liberal arts majors to even be abolished outright. Your business program sounds like it does a good job in preparing students for the working world.

As much as I enjoyed many of my English classes and teachers, I think I do ultimately regret choosing that major. They had required internships, but I don't think mine was especially useful. The stuff I did - compiling inventory, writing press releases, and proofreading documents at a nonprofit art organization - isn't in near as much demand as other office skills. I think I only used MS Excel once during my internship, and all I did was proofread what was already in existence; I didn't really learn the primary functions clerical occupations expect people to be familiar with regarding that application.

[WilyWestbrook0]

JeRmZ - We do need better teaching, particularly in math and science. I am not really sure I would classify teachers as underpaid, however - my dad easily supports a family of four with a salary of about $50,000 (business job). Teachers make about $30,000 to $40,000, which is a salary I probably will never be able to obtain in my lifetime even though I spent four years as an undergrad and one in grad school. Almost every student incurs debt in college these days from loans, and I don't think the extra couple of years most teaching programs require compared to most other majors is all that bad for the rights to what is actually a rather solid salary.

[WilyWestbrook0]

According to this link, the average salary of a teacher actually exceeds $50,000:

http://www.aft.org/salary/

[gatorboymike]

I think home-schooling should be outlawed, and so should government grants to private schools.

[WilyWestbrook0]

Home-schooling for religious reasons, or home-schooling per se?

[tutall]

JeRmZ - We do need better teaching, particularly in math and science. I am not really sure I would classify teachers as underpaid, however - my dad easily supports a family of four with a salary of about $50,000 (business job). Teachers make about $30,000 to $40,000, which is a salary I probably will never be able to obtain in my lifetime even though I spent four years as an undergrad and one in grad school. Almost every student incurs debt in college these days from loans, and I don't think the extra couple of years most teaching programs require compared to most other majors is all that bad for the rights to what is actually a rather solid salary.

I am honestly sick of teachers saying they dont make enough money. In northeastern Indiana there is a district that just voted on a new package that increases starting salary nearly 3 percent and will give a 5.5 percent raise for all non-administrative staff for the next 3 years. I wish i could get a 5,.5 percent raise in these times. The average teacher in this area easily makes 40K for teaching half the year. The teacher in Indiana with working a couple days before and after the school year will work about 190 days. I will work roughly 250 days this year. If you take the 40K and put it into the regular workers schedule that is basically making around 50K per year which in this area is pretty good. Teachers also get a ton of breaks, half days, plus extra pay for coaching, summer school, etc... I understand these people are teaching the kids but there are other jobs that are just as important that pay far less.

As far as the books in school, it is ridiculous. Thats one of the reasons college became so expensive for me. I went to a small community college for 2 years and the books were honestly as expensive as the courses. I started at a small private school and the books there were running 6-800 per semester. You sell them back to the bookstore and get maybe 150 back.

Preparing kids for the real world is easy. I would make it mandatory to put kids in working situations. be it on campus or off. Kids need to work even if it is at the local retail chain or fast food joint. I have worked with no breaks ever since i was 16 years old and i think i am a harder worker now and am where i am in my life because of it. It makes me sick when "kids" 20 years old and still have mommy and daddy making deposits into their account for the simple reason they are too lazy to get a job. If schools instituted some kind of program like an ICE or Work Study program that was mandatory i think society would be much better off. They also need to teach kids how to get jobs. I see WAY too many kids walk into a job interview in jeans and a polo. In high school we had a 9 week class that tought us how to make a resume, fill out an application, how to dress for the interview. I have never had an interview where i didnt get the job and i attribute that to that class and Mr. Finken.

As far as home schooling goes, I dont agree with it. My brother went to a small christian school and really has very little social skills. He had about 8 kids in his class and never knew how to interact with a large group. The school shut down and he had to go into the public school system and he is now behind in a lot. His grades are fine but his social communication is lacking to say the least. I can only imagine how someone who is not around many kids his/her age on a regular basis can become involved in society with no problem. I think it is better for a trained/licensed teacher to teach and le the kids get picjed on and a couple black eyes. It gets them more ready for the world the being overly protected at home. I think kids need to see more than what can be offered at home/church

[Aikman_TheGreat]

I think home-schooling should be outlawed, and so should government grants to private schools.

I like private schools. I went to one in AZ for 4 years. The teachers were actually teachers and cared about the students. They didnt just pass you to get rid of you. The grading scale was much harder than public schools. I learned more in those 4 years than I did when I went to a public high school for 4 years. Because in high school I didnt have to try, I was lazy and didnt get my crap done because I knew I could just pass and get out of there. It was too easy, well except for one class haha.