Another eBay Shipping from US to Canada Nightmare

[FuriousD82]

Well, this one is non-card related, but I guess it doesn't matter if I'm shipping cards or shoes, the lesson learned is the same. It's kind of a drawn out story so I'll post it here and see if anyone was any suggestions and comments.

All feedback, constructive or not, is appreciated.

I'll continue to update this thread as the PayPal Dispute continues, but I can already tell I'm going to lose out on $130.00 US on this one. Not a big deal, but definetly enough to make me change the way I do business to Canada.$0$0$0$0$0

The Story:
On July 5, 2009, I sold a pair of shoes on eBay for my girlfriend at a BIN now of $130 including shipping. The buyer had a perfect ebay feedback with over 73 transactions. I am located in Los Angeles, CA and theb buyer is in Toronto.

On July 8, 2009, I took the packaged shoes to my local US Post Office for mailing. I filled out my customs form and per my shipping policy, I shipped USPS First Class Mail. I offered the buyer registered shipping at her own cost, but she rejected.

On July 10 2009, I recieved a Message through ebay from the buyer:"Got the notice from Canada Post that my package is here, but that I need to go to the post office to pay the customs taxes on the shoes. Thank you for the fast shipping!"

At this point, I tossed away my receipt from USPS, thinking my side of the deal was all done.

On July 12, 2009, I received this message through ebay from the buyer:
"Hi. I went to the post office. Canada Post opened the package and valued the shoes at $350. They want me to pay a tax of $125 to get the shoes! Can I the shoes sent you back to you and have you put the reciept from the Paypal/Ebay transaction in the packaging so Canada Customs knows the true value of the shoes? "

On July 12, 2009, I responded, "That is fine, I'll ship them back when I receive them."

Weeks pass and no package arrives at my door. I sent messages to the buyer every two weeks that the package was not received.

Last week I get message from the Buyer through ebay asking me for the tracking information for the package. I immediately responded that the package was shipped USPS First Class without tracking information and that I assumed she would have a tracking number for me, considering she mailed me back the original package.

I then get this explanation from Buyer:

"Hi, I live in an apartment building which does not have front desk concierge service. Therefore, when CanadaPost come to deliver packages, if no one answers the door, Canadapost would simply leave a delivery notice on the mailbox. In this case, I received a notice in my mailbox, and I took the delivery notice to the post office to claim the package. When the package was brought to the front desk from the back room, the CanadaPost lady pointed out to me that this package was examined by Canadian Customs because it was marked as ?gift?, and it was valued at $350 by Canadian Customs. Thus, Canadian Customs requires the receiver to pay $125 tax up on receiving the package! $0I explained my situation to the Canadapost lady about these are eBay used shoes, and definitely do not worth $350, and that it is unfair to ask me to pay $125 worth of tax, which is actually more than what I paid for these shoes. $0The Canadapost lady understood the situation; she immediately marked ?return to sender? on the box and put it back into the outgoing mail box. For the whole time, this box was behind the CanadaPost front desk. $0Please note that, if the Canadian Customs is asking me to pay $125 tax on the item, how would I be able to actually receive the item without paying them the money first? $0Since this box is marked as ?return to sender? by CanadaPost, the original tracking number should still be effective. I don?t recall you providing me with a tracking number when you first sent the shoes to me. In any case, if you do have the tracking number, please go online and check it. It will definitely say that the package delivery has been unsuccessful! $0Please do provide me with your original tracking number as well, so that I can try contacting Canadapost."

I respond again that there is no tracking number and that I no longer have the LC Customs number because Buyer confirmed the package was recieved.

And yesterday, on August 17, 2009, the Buyer opened a dispute on Paypal, claiming "Package was never recieved."

I responded with basically the same messages I posted above. The buyer was either 1) unhappy with the customs charges or 2) a fraud and trying to recoup her money for the Customs Taxes by claiming the items were never received.

I call Paypal to ask them to review all the messages Buyer sent me through Ebay. These messages show that the Buyer recieved notice of the package and was unhappy with it for some reason, but failed to provide any proof that she shipped back the package as follows.

Paypal basically told me I was SOL and that they CANNOT ACCESS EBAY messaging when they conduct investigations. I told them that was out of control, they are owned by the same parent company AND Ebay Messaging would be my proof that Buyer recieved the packages. But, they stood to their guns and said without a tracking number, they would rule on Buyers side if there is a dispute.

I called Ebay to ask if Paypal Investigators have access to these messages. They said they did. Talk about failure to communicate between these parties.

I called the Buyer to see if we could figure something out. She told me she only filed the dispute because she was worried that if she did not file the dispute within 45 days, she would not be covered by Paypal's Buyer protection policy. We both agreed to continue to wait for the package to come back to Los Angeles. If It hasnt made it back yet, I doubt I will get it though.

So basically sometime down the line I'm going to be out $130 (a box of SP Authentic ) I already gave the sale proceeds to my girlfriend (they were her shoes) and I would never ask for that money back (and we all know that money is long gone).

My questions to ponder (rhetorical)

1) How can Paypal/Ebay not communicate with each other properly?

2) When does the Seller's responsibility end? I have messages showing proof of delivery to Buyer. Buyer simply was unhappy with having to pay taxes

3) How many other people have been in the same postiion? That is, they have proof through the Buyers messages that a package was received but the Buyer claims they did what they did

4) does it really take over a month to ship a package marked "Return to Sender" to return?

[RGM81]

Ouch. That's a real mess of a situation, and one in which you have absolutely no fault in the matter.
Purchasing high-end items from the US is always something of a game of roulette because you never really know when the customs folks will nail you. I've paid an extra $10 for a DVD (was still 20 bucks cheaper than any retail outlet in Canada though) and almost $100 for a full run of the Metallica fan club magazine. It's a bother, but it is what it is.

To me, these are the key items:
On July 8, 2009, I took the packaged shoes to my local US Post Office for mailing. I filled out my customs form and per my shipping policy, I shipped USPS First Class Mail. I offered the buyer registered shipping at her own cost, but she rejected.

On July 10 2009, I recieved a Message through ebay from the buyer:"Got the notice from Canada Post that my package is here, but that I need to go to the post office to pay the customs taxes on the shoes. Thank you for the fast shipping!"

You offered registered mail with tracking and it was declined. You filled out the forms accurately as you are supposed to do. You received confirmation from her that she had received the item. As far as I am concerned, you should be absolved of any and all financial fall-out from this situation. You did your part. You sent the item and it arrived to her. The fact that she didn't want to pay customs is not on you and that there was a customs charge to begin with is not something over which you have any control. That's all on Canada. LOL

It is unfortunate that something like this has happened because ultimately it's biting you on the backside. It's happened before to US sellers and many have stopped shipping to Canada as a consequence. For those in the hockey card selling biz, that's a major major market that is out of the equation because of a small number of transactions gone horribly wrong, often the case being that it's the buyer's error that causes the problem.

Now, it is possible that the shoes are being held up at customs. This happens and sometimes stuff gets held there for quite some time. It's entirely possible that the shoes may just be coming back into the US now. It's also possible that some scumbag stole them, in which case you're both hooped.

It really stinks that stuff like this happens as often as it does, and it's compounded when the left hand (PayPal) doesn't know what the right hand (eBay) is doing. Good luck getting the situation resolved.

[FlyerGuy22]

That stinks man.
I've learned this lesson the hard way before too. Now, no matter what I'm shipping outside the US, I fill out the customs forms at home and scan them (the customs number is for delivery confirmation per se, but works almost the same).

I had someone from the UK try to scam me out of $225, but I sent the scan of the customs form in to PayPal and when they looked up the number and it said it had een delivered oversees. They closed the whole ordeal - in my favor!

[30ranfordfan]

Don't have any stories to relate (though, I recently sold a Guitar on eBay for a friend, delivery was confirmed by Fedex today (going from Ontario to Arizona.... so I'm still waiting to hear that there were no problems / issues) but I agree with you:

If eBay can verify, through the messages, that the buyer received it.... the seller should be off the hook for any problems that may have resulted afterwards.

I do very little selling on eBay (a flip a few cards now and then, not a lot) and while I was happy to help out my friend who wanted to sell the Guitar, I've been very nervous throughout the whole thing. I know he won't let me get stuck with any charges.... but I've just heard way too many stories of sellers getting ripped off by buyers, especially when the package has to cross the boarder.

I can appreciate the need to protect buyers from people who would use eBay to scam them, but it really seems like eBay / Paypal have hung sellers out to dry. They keep making changes (i.e. Paypal is the ONLY acceptable form of payment) that, IMO, are going to make it more and more difficult for people to justify using their website.

I get that it's supposed to make it a safe market place, but it's going to make it a more expensive place to shop. I know I've passed up on bidding on items because $25 for insured shipping is too much to pay. What is the American seller supposed to do though? Risk getting scammed? If the prices go up, and the selection goes down (which is what is going to happen over time, if they don't get this figured out) eBay is going to ruin the goldmine they're sitting on.

[reoddai]

Aside from the advice that's already been given, I'd like to recommend one one more thing.

The Paypal dispute process is a cold and impersonal method. I've a feeling that you're sure to lose if you continue to fight through e-mails and through the dispute resolution process.

If you can be charming, try phoning the Paypal call center. If you get a sympathetic representative who's willing to stay on the phone with you while they go find the information you want (ie: eBay messages), you can prove to them that the seller did receive the item, they just declined it. At the very least, you can re-post the messages stored in eBay into the Paypal dispute console. You may find that the seller will agree with what you post.

Now whether this means that they will issue a refund anyways (since the item should have been returned to you), or they will deny the claim (since it was for Item not received, when it clearly was), its hard to say.

Unfortunately, your best bet was that receipt that was thrown away. Its a costly lesson I know.

Hope it works out for you somehow.
cheers,
reoddai

[FuriousD82]

Thanks folks :)

[gregmal05]

Personally, due to issues when shipping to Canada previously, I will only ship using registered mail. Thus I do not sell often and when I do its only to move cards at $50 or higher to make it worthwhile spending $13 on shipping. Otherwise you are just taking a chance because you are 100% open to getting screwed.

[dahabsfan]

You've been had, plain and simple. Even if Canadapost had assessed the package at $350 - the total owed would have been around $40-45 as we only pay taxes plus a $5 fee for Canadapost opening and assessing the package.

Darren

[delacroixandora]

i didn't read the replies, so i'm sorry if i'm repeating someone, but i gotta say..

people like the buyer **** me off to nooooooo end, because her issue, once finding out how much tax / customs valued the shoes etc.. her issue stands now with customs, and the value they put on the shoes (was their a fashion expert at the customs booth?), it sounds too hokey..

her issue is with having to prove to customs the shoes' worth relative to ebay and what she paid for them, that should be the end of it..

i don't think anything is your fault, at all

the other part, about the two companies not communicating, and the fact that paypal says they can't see the ebay messages, that's also bs imo, send them the messages, or keep trying to phone and talk to different people, or keep asking for managers or whatever, just out of principle. like you said, they are the same company, and as well, you have documented proof of this case..

this also sounds to me, that if you raised enough stink and badgered enough you'd win imo, because you did nothing wrong.. blame the broad who blamed you for some customs project runway fan

[TheIronHorse4]

It's stories like this that make me require registered shipping on anything over 35 dollars internationally. The seller will lose 9/10 times in a situation like this and the only way to protect yourself is to raise prices (Which is unfortunate for all parties).