Every argument ever between Christians and atheists

[gatorboymike]

i understand evolution, not to the extent you do, though. its not that i dont want to believe it, but there just has to be something more than science that created the world out there. there is billions and billions of miles of space out there, thats incredible if you've ever seen pictures. Its hard to believe that it made its own self.

No one says science created the world. Science is just study. And if by "made itself" you mean matter came from nothing for no reason, no one says that either. Our present understanding of physics says that matter cannot be created or destroyed. So there are two possibilities that we know of now: either all matter in the universe always existed, or it was created by something we don't understand. Sure, a creator god fits into that category, but we can't rule out the possibility that a natural phenomenon, not a supernatural one, created the universe. We just don't know. And claiming it must have been a god because you can't see how it could be anything else is simply groundless and illogical. "I don't know" means "I don't know." Better to admit you don't know and keep trying to find out, than to tell yourself you already have the answer and close your mind to everything else.

im not going to question evolutions theory of 'life came from non-living material', because thats where God created life from.. if you believe in creation, but it is pretty unlikely, if you believe in creation, then you believe in God, and the Bible says God to do anything, so its easier to believe than believing that the natural process of the earth formed life throughout billions of years.

Maybe it's easier for you to believe that because you've been brought up to believe that. And it's easier because that is a thought-stopper. All supernatural things are thought-stoppers. And by that I mean as soon as you label something supernatural, what you're really saying is, "We'll never understand this, this is impossible for us to understand, so let's just agree on that and never think about it again." There is not a single instance in all of human history where assuming something to be supernatural led to an increase in knowledge. Conversely, a great deal of the knowledge we have today was gained by inspecting things once thought to be supernatural to see if they were really natural. As far as God goes, if you thought about it, you'd have to ask questions like, where did God come from? How is God able to create matter from nothing? What is God made of? What abilities does God have and what abilities does God not have? Using a supernatural being to answer the question of where the universe came from is simply trying to solve a mystery with an even bigger mystery.

[Darth Braun]

All supernatural things are thought-stoppers. And by that I mean as soon as you label something supernatural, what you're really saying is, "We'll never understand this, this is impossible for us to understand, so let's just agree on that and never think about it again."

Really? Because I label the origin of the universe as being created by God, and I understand it. God created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th. First came light and darkness on day 1, then came the firmament on day 2. Day three was the water and land, and day 4 was the sun, moon, and stars. Day 5 was the birds and fish, and day 6 was land animals and man. To me, and to many other Christians, that's not too hard to understand.

[shapingle]

No one says science created the world. Science is just study. And if by "made itself" you mean matter came from nothing for no reason, no one says that either. Our present understanding of physics says that matter cannot be created or destroyed. So there are two possibilities that we know of now: either all matter in the universe always existed, or it was created by something we don't understand. Sure, a creator god fits into that category, but we can't rule out the possibility that a natural phenomenon, not a supernatural one, created the universe. We just don't know. And claiming it must have been a god because you can't see how it could be anything else is simply groundless and illogical. "I don't know" means "I don't know." Better to admit you don't know and keep trying to find out, than to tell yourself you already have the answer and close your mind to everything else.



Maybe it's easier for you to believe that because you've been brought up to believe that. And it's easier because that is a thought-stopper. All supernatural things are thought-stoppers. And by that I mean as soon as you label something supernatural, what you're really saying is, "We'll never understand this, this is impossible for us to understand, so let's just agree on that and never think about it again." There is not a single instance in all of human history where assuming something to be supernatural led to an increase in knowledge. Conversely, a great deal of the knowledge we have today was gained by inspecting things once thought to be supernatural to see if they were really natural. As far as God goes, if you thought about it, you'd have to ask questions like, where did God come from? How is God able to create matter from nothing? What is God made of? What abilities does God have and what abilities does God not have? Using a supernatural being to answer the question of where the universe came from is simply trying to solve a mystery with an even bigger mystery.

im not closing my mind because i would have never posted a comment here trying to learn a little bit about evolution in the first place.
ive thought about those questions all the time, and ill guess we'll find out one day. science is a great thing, but evolution is just a theory, and has flaws and alot of different theories, and just like you said.. about the questions about God, creation has some questions to be answered.

[gatorboymike]

Really? Because I label the origin of the universe as being created by God, and I understand it. God created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th. First came light and darkness on day 1, then came the firmament on day 2. Day three was the water and land, and day 4 was the sun, moon, and stars. Day 5 was the birds and fish, and day 6 was land animals and man. To me, and to many other Christians, that's not too hard to understand.

No you don't understand it. You just know what a book says. But you don't understand what God is or where God is, what he's made of, where he came from, how he came into existence, how he can make something out of nothing, or anything about him. You don't understand his nature at all. And you don't think about it either, which is why I said supernaturalism is a thought-stopper. You call the origin of the universe supernatural specifically for the purpose of excusing yourself from the responsibility of thinking about it. And whenever people like me start asking you these questions about your god, which we have every right to, you say "How dare you question my beliefs, are you trying to offend me? Just sit down, shut up, turn off your brain and believe every word I say, or else!" Either that or you reply with a pre-prepared string of non-illuminating non-answers like "God can do anything because he's magic." That's what you're really arguing for when you invoke gods: magic. And I'm just waiting for one of those two responses from you. So go ahead, read your book as much as you like, memorize as much of it as you want, but don't dare tell me you've gained some profound scientific knowledge from it. The only thing you'll ever learn from reading the Bible is what it says in the Bible.

[shapingle]

gatorboy- being religious is about faith, i have faith in God and faith in the Bible. God has always been where? in Heaven, according to the Bible, God has always been existing. if you don't believe it, then i guess thats your loss. Its perfectly logical to believe in what science points toward, but science points toward creation, too.

[gatorboymike]

im not closing my mind because i would have never posted a comment here trying to learn a little bit about evolution in the first place.
ive thought about those questions all the time, and ill guess we'll find out one day. science is a great thing, but evolution is just a theory, and has flaws and alot of different theories, and just like you said.. about the questions about God, creation has some questions to be answered.

I can tell by the way you say "just a theory" that you don't know what a scientific theory is and how it differs from the colloquial use of the word. And I can tell that you're determined to dismiss it without consideration no matter what happens. If that's the case, I can't teach you anything because you don't really want to know, and you're wasting my time.

Oh yes, and those questions about creation...those will never be answered. The church cannot answer them, it doesn't even want to try, and it certainly doesn't want anyone to ever think about them. That's why Christianity has existed for 2,000 years and we are absolutely no closer to getting answers to those questions than we were in the Bronze Age. Science, on the other hand, has been and will continue to be filling in the gaps in our knowledge for as long as the church lost its power to stop it. And as long as the progress of science is unhindered by religious maniacs who want to use the ignorance and superstition and fear of the common people to rule the world, it will continue to learn more and more.

[gatorboymike]

gatorboy- being religious is about faith, i have faith in God and faith in the Bible. God has always been where? in Heaven, according to the Bible, God has always been existing. if you don't believe it, then i guess thats your loss. Its perfectly logical to believe in what science points toward, but science points toward creation, too.

What in science points toward creation?

[shapingle]

those questions are unanswerable, but i disagree about church 'not wanting to answer them'. trsut me, if preachers could answer those questions they would, but they are no where in the Bible, so what do you want them to tell us(church members). Im not sure of your religious past or whatever, maybe you had a horrible reverin/priest/pastor when you grew up if you even went to church like my pastor, but i can tell you that if those questions could be answered.. they would be. Just like evolutions questions.. they will NEVER be answered, the closest to most of them will be hypothesis' and when evolution is without a flaw, you let me know. i do want to know about evolution, but no, im probably not going to believe it.

[shapingle]

Mike- we can continue this conversation on tommorow, i've got to do a bit of math and other great home work .

[Darth Braun]

No you don't understand it. You just know what a book says. But you don't understand what God is or where God is, what he's made of, where he came from, how he came into existence, how he can make something out of nothing, or anything about him. You don't understand his nature at all. And you don't think about it either, which is why I said supernaturalism is a thought-stopper. You call the origin of the universe supernatural specifically for the purpose of excusing yourself from the responsibility of thinking about it.

Wow...you know what's going on in my mind right now? That's impressive. You deserve a nobel prize for your mind-reading abilities. Boy, sarcasm is tough to type. Because I have studied the Bible for over 13 years, I think I have a pretty good understanding of what it says. God is a Spirit and does not have a body like man. God is in heaven. God has always been and always will be. God is omnipotent (means all-powerful) and therefore can do anything. How do you know I don't think about it? I LOVE studying the Bible and learning principles to apply to my life.

And whenever people like me start asking you these questions about your god, which we have every right to, you say "How dare you question my beliefs, are you trying to offend me? Just sit down, shut up, turn off your brain and believe every word I say, or else!" Either that or you reply with a pre-prepared string of non-illuminating non-answers like "God can do anything because he's magic." That's what you're really arguing for when you invoke gods: magic.

Care to lead me to where anyone has said such a thing on this forum? Because from what I've read, they've provided great answers, you've just chosen not to listen or even hear their words.

The only thing you'll ever learn from reading the Bible is what it says in the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.

Sounds to me like the circulation of the atmosphere.

Leviticus 17:11
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

I think this one is self-explanatory. The Bible says that blood is necessary for life.

Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

Hydrologic cycle.

Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

Evaporation, translation, condensation, precipitation.

Here's a quick question for you. Where did moral laws come from?