The difference today

[RedGoneWILD]

im still waiting for streicher to correct me or to correct himself...

where in PA can you use an access card to purchase alcohol or cigarettes?

[GrimUSMC]

Let them starve.

Thsi country doesnt have the heart or the stomach. the only way to correct it is to start holding peopel accountable. You cant aford a house?? Rent. you cant pay your rent, get a roomamte. Cant afford food, starve. Section 8, and other government programs have destroyed, and as long as their are whining liberals, we will always have these problems, and they will get wose. If our Supreme court says we cant execute child rapists, do you think were gonna let losers starve or be homeless??? There is no more personal responsibility. Its because of a disability, or daddy didnt tell me he loved me.

[Aikman_TheGreat]

Thsi country doesnt have the heart or the stomach. the only way to correct it is to start holding peopel accountable. You cant aford a house?? Rent. you cant pay your rent, get a roomamte. Cant afford food, starve. Section 8, and other government programs have destroyed, and as long as their are whining liberals, we will always have these problems, and they will get wose. If our Supreme court says we cant execute child rapists, do you think were gonna let losers starve or be homeless??? There is no more personal responsibility. Its because of a disability, or daddy didnt tell me he loved me.

This country flourished before my time. Or at least i was too young to realize it. And the reason it did flourish is because people knew you either had to work so you could eat, or dont work and not eat. haha. Its that simple. Still should be, but its not. When I was growing up (I'm still only 22), I was taught those lessons, work and eat, or dont. Simple as that.

[themanishere]

While accountability is all well and good, there are structures in place, figuratively and literally, which do not allow some people to obtain minimal subsistence to "survive" the way most of society lives. Simply reproducing your life day-to-day (i.e. working to eat) is not enough. Those people, as a whole, become stagnant under their conditions.

Further, accountability implies interdependence. To be fully accountable to society is to be fully accountable to each person's well-being (in a bit of a figurative sense, since the aggregate of the people's well-being is the well-being of society). In this sense, it is somewhat of a socialist idea of accountability - that the good of one is to the good of all. We manifest our individual accountability by working to do our part in maintaining the lifestyle of the population. However, for many, the returns are not quite the same, which is why a lot of people become lazy - even with all of the work, there is little relative reward except in a job well done (which is a total crock and a "consolation" prize in the reality of things.)

For many of those who bust their chops, they get minimal returns and ground to a pulp for scrawny subsistence. But they keep doing it for the slim-to-none chance of making it big. Sure, there is always a chance, but for one of the bottom-feeders to "make it," a lot needs to fall into place at the right time.

It is not as simple as "work or starve." Many people work harder than most and still starve, and it is a systematic problem so something bigger is functioning negatively here...

[OnePimpTiger]

While accountability is all well and good, there are structures in place, figuratively and literally, which do not allow some people to obtain minimal subsistence to "survive" the way most of society lives. Simply reproducing your life day-to-day (i.e. working to eat) is not enough. Those people, as a whole, become stagnant under their conditions.

Further, accountability implies interdependence. To be fully accountable to society is to be fully accountable to each person's well-being (in a bit of a figurative sense, since the aggregate of the people's well-being is the well-being of society). In this sense, it is somewhat of a socialist idea of accountability - that the good of one is to the good of all. We manifest our individual accountability by working to do our part in maintaining the lifestyle of the population. However, for many, the returns are not quite the same, which is why a lot of people become lazy - even with all of the work, there is little relative reward except in a job well done (which is a total crock and a "consolation" prize in the reality of things.)

For many of those who bust their chops, they get minimal returns and ground to a pulp for scrawny subsistence. But they keep doing it for the slim-to-none chance of making it big. Sure, there is always a chance, but for one of the bottom-feeders to "make it," a lot needs to fall into place at the right time.

It is not as simple as "work or starve." Many people work harder than most and still starve, and it is a systematic problem so something bigger is functioning negatively here...

I see things differently. First, the only accountability a person has to society is avoid being criminal and provide for yourself so as not to be a burden on society. It's good to be productive and be a consumer, etc, etc, etc, but when it comes down to it, as long as you're not a detriment to society, that's good enough. I think people should feel a moral obligation to help those who are less fortunate, but it's not the government's place to force you to do so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand not being able to "survive" the way most society lives, working to eat not being enough, people becoming stagnant under those conditions, etc to mean living day-to-day is no fun, is not satisfying, and makes people envious of a better life, like the lives they see of other, more successful people. Yes a lot of people work very hard for little reward and bust their tails just to get by, but that is their responsibility as members of society. It sucks that some people are in that situation, but the fact is they are. The alternative is to not bust their tails and ask their neighbors to provide for them from the fruits of their hard work.

You say being accountable to society is providing for the well-being of each member. I say being accountable to society is providing for yourself so other members of society don't have to provide for you. At the point where a person has tried everything they possibly can, but has still failed, that is where charity comes in. As I said before, I think people should feel an obligation to help the less fortunate and I think most people do. If I see my neighbor is struggling, but is trying everything they can to stay above water, I'm happy to do what I can to help. But if the government tells me I have to pay for him plus a lot of others who aren't trying to provide for themselves, I'm not ok with that. And yes, I know not everyone on welfare, etc is lazy and hasn't tried or tried very minimally to provide for themselves, but you can't deny that a lot are.

Something I would like to see is instead of walking to the mailbox and getting a check mailed from a no-name, no-face person in Washington, government assistance recipients would have to go to their neighbors and ask for their share of tax money. It's easy to take government assistance when you just cash a check without thinking about where it came from, but I guarantee it would be much harder when you have to face the fact that you're taking money from your neighbors who a lot of times are not doing much better than you. And I would wager a lot of fans of huge social programs might rethink their ideals as well when they see who is coming to ask for money.

[themanishere]

I see things differently. First, the only accountability a person has to society is avoid being criminal and provide for yourself so as not to be a burden on society. It's good to be productive and be a consumer, etc, etc, etc, but when it comes down to it, as long as you're not a detriment to society, that's good enough. I think people should feel a moral obligation to help those who are less fortunate, but it's not the government's place to force you to do so.

Yes, but accountability and interdependence are linked. One has to use the resources within society to subsist, so there is a communal sense of accountability in terms of the means to live in society while not disturbing the function of those means.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand not being able to "survive" the way most society lives...Yes a lot of people work very hard for little reward and bust their tails just to get by, but that is their responsibility as members of society. It sucks that some people are in that situation, but the fact is they are. The alternative is to not bust their tails and ask their neighbors to provide for them from the fruits of their hard work.

My thought is, it shouldn't have to be their responsibility to do so (i.e. to have to live under those conditions as their responsibility to society). However, in the structure of our society as it is today, the lowly worker, and the associated hardships, are necessary for our community to function as it currently does. Most of these people were placed, at least in part, in that responsibility by various mechanisms and institutions outside of their control.

You say being accountable to society is providing for the well-being of each member.

In an overall sense, yes. The well-being of society facilitates the opportunity for the well-being of each individual. It is something of an associative responsibility. However, I do not want to place blame on any certain individuals - many conditions present today have long been out of our control in this respect of accountability.

I say being accountable to society is providing for yourself so other members of society don't have to provide for you. At the point where a person has tried everything they possibly can, but has still failed, that is where charity comes in. As I said before, I think people should feel an obligation to help the less fortunate and I think most people do. If I see my neighbor is struggling, but is trying everything they can to stay above water, I'm happy to do what I can to help. But if the government tells me I have to pay for him plus a lot of others who aren't trying to provide for themselves, I'm not ok with that. And yes, I know not everyone on welfare, etc is lazy and hasn't tried or tried very minimally to provide for themselves, but you can't deny that a lot are.

Charity is a crock - it is merely a band-aid for the real problem in my opinion. This is not to say we shouldn't help others, but charity has fooled us into thinking it is something substantial against the root of an issue. I'm not an absolute advocate of welfare, but like you said there are people who deserve the help which may or may not be provided by individuals - and the scope of people who deserve the help is too widespread (due to systematic failures) to rely on the generosity of fellow people. Basically, until the format of society changes, the substantial transformation

My sense is the notion of accountability today exists on an individual level. We embody somewhat of an animalistic ideal of subsistence where we say - what is in it for my well-being? Ultimately, that mindset alienates individuals from each other because of a given contradiction - we want our own individual stuff, but we have to rely on the societal/communal capacity, which everyone together has to maintain and contribute to, to provide the possibility of that for us.

[OnePimpTiger]

Well we see things differently on a fundamental level and I'll leave it at that except for one comment:

Charity is a crock - it is merely a band-aid for the real problem in my opinion. This is not to say we shouldn't help others, but charity has fooled us into thinking it is something substantial against the root of an issue.

Replace the word charity with welfare and that's exactly how I feel.

[GrimUSMC]

While accountability is all well and good, there are structures in place, figuratively and literally, which do not allow some people to obtain minimal subsistence to "survive" the way most of society lives. Simply reproducing your life day-to-day (i.e. working to eat) is not enough. Those people, as a whole, become stagnant under their conditions.

Further, accountability implies interdependence. To be fully accountable to society is to be fully accountable to each person's well-being (in a bit of a figurative sense, since the aggregate of the people's well-being is the well-being of society). In this sense, it is somewhat of a socialist idea of accountability - that the good of one is to the good of all. We manifest our individual accountability by working to do our part in maintaining the lifestyle of the population. However, for many, the returns are not quite the same, which is why a lot of people become lazy - even with all of the work, there is little relative reward except in a job well done (which is a total crock and a "consolation" prize in the reality of things.)

For many of those who bust their chops, they get minimal returns and ground to a pulp for scrawny subsistence. But they keep doing it for the slim-to-none chance of making it big. Sure, there is always a chance, but for one of the bottom-feeders to "make it," a lot needs to fall into place at the right time.

It is not as simple as "work or starve." Many people work harder than most and still starve, and it is a systematic problem so something bigger is functioning negatively here...

Thats completely False. in this country you are entitled to a free education up to and through high School, and many public high schools even offer tech programs. Problem is that many of todays burdens dont take advantage of the oppurtunities (SP?) their given. they cut schol when theyre 15-18, and then barely pass, drop out, or did so bad that after school, they lay around and do nothing. Thats not my problem. If you ruined your life as a teenager, thats not fair to the kid who busted his *** and got into the good college and now has a great job, because he EARNED it, see that woprd, EARNED! **** you can even enlist after high school, and theyll send you to college for free, and you have a job or four years.

And before you say thats rare and not possible, I grew up poor, with my mom who was a single mom, and made pennies. she busted her ***, and so did we. My sister went to college, and i enlisted, and we do pretty dam well for ourselves now.

Dont spit this "O its nto their fault" BS, and "we have to help all of them" BS. If thats what you want, find a flux capacitor, and go back to the USSR in the 70's

And before you say its nto true

[ensbergcollector]

Charity is a crock - it is merely a band-aid for the real problem in my opinion. This is not to say we shouldn't help others, but charity has fooled us into thinking it is something substantial against the root of an issue. I'm not an absolute advocate of welfare, but like you said there are people who deserve the help which may or may not be provided by individuals - and the scope of people who deserve the help is too widespread (due to systematic failures) to rely on the generosity of fellow people. Basically, until the format of society changes, the substantial transformation

spend any amount of time working at a homeless shelter, a battered women's center, or any number of other places and tell me that charity is a crock. There are programs in every major city to provide some form of housing and food for people who will follow the rules and guidelines of the place.

[themanishere]

**** you can even enlist after high school, and theyll send you to college for free, and you have a job or four years.

You completely missed a point of my previous post. I am saying society is structured so that is limits people's options. Why should they have to enlist? There are structures in place which can rigidly guide people to routes like that. I am saying these people shouldn't have to decide to enlist to get out of their hardships - they should have similar opportunities to pursue their own responsibilities to society, rather than having to decide on a path that is presented to them as a function of their living conditions.

And before you say thats rare and not possible, I grew up poor, with my mom who was a single mom, and made pennies. she busted her ***, and so did we. My sister went to college, and i enlisted, and we do pretty dam well for ourselves now.

This kind of proves my point about it being rare. You spew about your personal experience. While I understand that, it is nowhere near an indication that enough opportunities are open to the general population of people living under bad conditions.