The Lack Of Vintage Collectors Is Depressing Rant

[roy.the.greatest]

There's simple logic... and there's simple logic.

When you say market, are we talking a breadth or a depth? I don't know many vintage websites. In terms of vintage, eBay seems pretty active though.

eBay has 82 completed listings for 1951,52 hockey cards in the past 15 days. ~80% sold (including reprints)

eBay has 251 completed listings for 1966-67 hockey cards in the past 15 days. ~50% sold

In the same timeframe for 1999-00 eBay has 1811 completed listings. Looks like ~30% sold.

Same timeframe, for 2009-10 eBay has 18,577 completes listings, also at about ~30% sold.

I agree that there is a market, but the size of the market is pretty small when compared with that of modern day cards.

Major facts here. Nothing wrong with a vintage market that is small (that's a reality), people shoudn't be upset with that. So, as we refer to the first message, it is normal to see very few collectors active in this area of hockey cards.

[HawksFan67]

I myself float back and forth between vintage and modern. When the newer cards I want are commanding high prices, I go to vintage. (70's and 80's for me) Then when all the hype dyes down (and the prices) on the modern I go after what I wanted. I have no problem waiting a couple of years for prices to drop and then scoop them up on e-bay.

I would love to trade for more vintage but the condition is so sensitive and not everyone is forth coming on the real condition. A NM/MT to someone else might be a joke to me. I've made a few deals for vintage cards and was VERY disappointed with what i received. Right now I purchase a ton of graded vintage on e-bay from a seller by the name of 4_sharp_corners. The leg work is already done and graded and I know exactly what I'm getting.

Vintage collectors are here. I would love to add more Hawks vintage to my collection but am very weary of dealing for raw cards.

That's my 2 cents.............

[4ant4]

Hawks - Sorry to tell you if you didn't already know, but 4_Sharp_Corners is one of the well known sellers who cuts up sheets and has the cards graded. That's why he ends up with so many high grade singles.

As for the stats/numbers on vintage versus modern cards sold on EBAY, I think many people are missing the obvious stat. There is way less vintage available then modern cards. You are talking about vintage when there were only 1 or 2 sets released per year. Modern cards there are as many as 50-60 sets per year when there were multiple licensed manufacturers in the fold? Even when UD was the inly licensed company, you still had over 30 sets per year between then and ITG. So those numbers really mean nothing other then stating the obvious that there is way more modern available then vintage due to how much was made.

[1967ers]

Hawks - Sorry to tell you if you didn't already know, but 4_Sharp_Corners is one of the well known sellers who cuts up sheets and has the cards graded. That's why he ends up with so many high grade singles.

Interesting - I didn't know that about him. Who else is known for that?

[HawksFan67]

Hawks - Sorry to tell you if you didn't already know, but 4_Sharp_Corners is one of the well known sellers who cuts up sheets and has the cards graded. That's why he ends up with so many high grade singles.

No, I didn't know that. But whether he does or not, isn't a 74 OPC Joe Blow PSA 9 the same either way? It still came from that product. It's still a 74 OPC. Does anyone care if a graded card was pack pulled or cut from a sheet?

I'm not trying to be a smart a--. Just asking if anyone puts a premium on a pack pulled graded card VS a cut sheet? If an uncut sheet of 79-80 OPC existed, and someone cut a Gretzky RC into a PSA 10, would it be worth any less than $80,000?

[reoddai]

As for the stats/numbers on vintage versus modern cards sold on EBAY, I think many people are missing the obvious stat. There is way less vintage available then modern cards. You are talking about vintage when there were only 1 or 2 sets released per year. Modern cards there are as many as 50-60 sets per year when there were multiple licensed manufacturers in the fold? Even when UD was the inly licensed company, you still had over 30 sets per year between then and ITG. So those numbers really mean nothing other then stating the obvious that there is way more modern available then vintage due to how much was made.

At the beginning of this thread, the question was: Where are the vintage collectors? Well, there's a good answer.

You said it yourself "There is way less vintage available then modern cards." For a second, let's say there are 1 million vintage cards. If everyone who collects vintage had an average collection of 1000 cards, then there would only be 1000 collectors. If there's 10 million modern cards and everyone has a collection of 1000, then there's 10,000 collectors.

This forces modern cards to be more popular. There's just more of it available. If you want to find a fellow vintage collector, you also have to find someone who is willing to track down the less available vintage cards. By necessity there's can't be as many vintage collectors as modern collectors.

Lack of a supply is a hindrance. Relation to the game is a hindrance. Cost is a hindrance with the popular players. Many of the examples you provided here are more than what people spend in a year. If you want to encourage someone to trade with you, you need to have something both of you want to exchange. There is a market of course, but its smaller than modern cards. It has to be. I'll leave the exact popularity and size to someone who wants to do a analysis. I'm more concerned with this.

What can be done to encourage the vintage collector to try out SCF, stay at SCF and trade at SCF?

[roy.the.greatest]

I'm not trying to be a smart a--. Just asking if anyone puts a premium on a pack pulled graded card VS a cut sheet? If an uncut sheet of 79-80 OPC existed, and someone cut a Gretzky RC into a PSA 10, would it be worth any less than $80,000?

This market about cut sheet cards began around 2000. Now, 10 years later, too many people still know nothing about this "racket market", thinking they buy the real thing, this is why MANY sellers jumped on this opportinuty to make BIG money. You can buy a 1986-87 O-Pee-Chee uncut sheets set for $300-500, and re-sell the main RC cut cards graded by Beckett (most BGS 9.5) for $2500-3000 if not more. Easy money. On my side I stay away from the cards that are obviously not factory, because the cut makes the value of a card. People making money with this racket market will tell you that it is not important, to close yours eyes on the situation. I fully disagree with this behavior.

[HawksFan67]

This market about cut sheet cards began around 2000. Now, 10 years later, too many people still know nothing about this "racket market", thinking they buy the real thing, this is why MANY sellers jumped on this opportinuty to make BIG money. You can buy a 1986-87 O-Pee-Chee uncut sheets set for $300-500, and re-sell the main RC cut cards graded by Beckett (most BGS 9.5) for $2500-3000 if not more. Easy money. On my side I stay away from the cards that are obviously not factory, because the cut makes the value of a card. People making money with this racket market will tell you that it is not important, to close yours eyes on the situation. I fully disagree with this behavior.

But they are still THAT product from THAT year, correct? The only difference I see between the two is that someone else cut the cards better than the manufacturer. That in it self doesn't make one or the other any more or less genuine.

What if I bought an uncut sheet myself. Then sent it to Topps and had them cut it for me. Would that make it genuine? I see no difference.

[CoolHandLuke]

When you grade a card prior to the '90, all cards from a set were all cut using the same machine type. Then if the knives where not too sharp, it created some less good cut. Card grading as a part were the edge is examine. Often this is where a card does not reach high grade because the cut is too rough.

Today we can cut cards and have a almost perfrect cut, not like back in the '70 or '80. This mean you can maybe get a 9.5 if it's does get unseen.

But a good grader should see if the cut is too evident and that it was cut from a sheet with today's tools, then he should not grade the card as it's not a pack pulled card. It's a scam to pretend they are anything but a card cut from the sheet in the hobby as we don't consider cut cards as a card from the production since it was cut in a other place and time then the year it was produce. New techonoly or technology not used at the time, may just beat any cut made back in the days. This is why it's not consider as a legit card but more a defaced sheet.

[mugmasher]

i just gotta throw my 2 cents in on this subject even though it is really drawn out now...when i started collecting back in 97 i started with modern and then i started getting into vintage.i collected vintage baseball..( i know hockey thread ) anyway i had some amazing cards some i payed as much as $1,500 a piece..i had mantles, williams,kaline,,snider,,aron,ect..everyone i had were in amazing shape..i think, no, actually i know one of the mantles i had if i were to have it graded today would have went for thousands..well i since then got rid of all of them because my family went thru some hard times and needed the money at the time..till this day i think about those cards and kick myself for getting rid of them..but i never get upset when i get rid of my cards of today from time to time..why?? because i know those i can replace..all i have to do is be patient..but with cards of yesterday..there is no being patient because the values never go down..never..they just have no where to go but up..because they will never make anymore of them...and i am sure one day the cards we collect now will be vintage and we will look back and say the same thing..but i can assure you that the vintage of the future will never and can never be compared to the vintage we look at now..