Evidence vs. Faith.

[JustAlex]

alex, that is because you have assigned the term God to mean and represent something specific. God being the creator does not have to mean an old white man with a beard and robe doing magic.

and I would ask Hawkins, what was before the big bang and what created it and where did it come from?

Shrew, did you know that when I stopped being a christian I was still a theist?

Yes, when I gave up on religion, I didn't give up on god, I simply thought god was a being that lived outside of space and time, who doesn't care what we do.

But then that didn't make any sense, if god lives outside of space and time, then why call him god?

Hawkings can't answer your question, I'm sure he and other scientists have their beliefs about what was before the singularity, but they don't have any proof for it yet.

BUT....to them and to me it doesn't make sense to say "We don't know what happened....therefore, god did it".

That's a logical fallacy.

Do you have proof that God doesn't exist? No. What is your point? You are debating the authenticity of opinion.

Let me level with you Duane.

Do you have any proof that Leprechauns, aliens, bigfoot, etc. don't exist? No, right?

And I'm going to assume that you probably don't believe in those creatures, right?

IF you don't believe in them and yet you have no proof that they don't exist.....why don't you have faith in bigfoot, aliens, and leprechauns?

This is a serious question.

[JustAlex]

Jay, you should read Hawkin's book "The Grand Design". It may provide you with a different perspective to entertain.

That's actually on my "To read" list.

I can't wait to read it when I get the chance.

if so, I may still read it, but it is a classic, everything came from nothing, but on a larger scale. You cannot get anything from nothing so I find a flaw with it. I have issues with spontaneous creation and if it did exist, perhaps that is how god came about.

Then I would recommend Lawrence Krauss book...

"A Universe from Nothing".

Hint, hint, hint.....when Krauss says "Nothing" it is NOT what you and I think of.


Shrew....there is SO MUCH evidence for a naturalistic Universe....TONS, and yet, how much evidence is there of a supernatural universe? none.

[shrewsbury]

I simply thought god was a being that lived outside of space and time, who doesn't care what we do.

there are plenty of theist and christians who think this, i may be one of them.

there is SO MUCH evidence for a naturalistic Universe....TONS, and yet, how much evidence is there of a supernatural universe?

supernatural could simply be nature misunderstood, again, it does not have to mean magical powers.

and where the heck did nature derive from?

i know you will go back to genesis, but it was written by humans with little to no understanding of the sciences, and thus flawed.

i believe the bible CAN reveal things about God, but it was not written by God and i don't think God would approve of it, nor do i believe everything, or even a lot of it is factual nor truth.

[JustAlex]

there are plenty of theist and christians who think this, i may be one of them.

Deists and Pantheists mostly.

and where the heck did nature derive from?

I don't know Shrew, but I don't think a being simply SPOKE it into existence, that makes less sense than Nature popping out of nowhere.

Why?

Because if you want to say god created nature, then what created god? And what created the being that created god? and so on and so on....it's an infinite regression.

And this is the problem with the concept of "Infinite"....it creates MANY problems.

When people say "god is infinite" they should really stop and think about how little sense that really makes.

And No, you can't say "God has always been"....that is not a valid answer, because if you do that, then I will say "Nature has always been" and the two answers are just as valid.

[Wickabee]

I would actually say both ideas make the same amount of sense. The difference is that just because a priest told you he "spoke" things into existence doesn't mean everyone thinks that.

Look at the argument I had yesterday with GS. He tells me Dec. 25 is definitely Jesus birthday. I believe in God. I believe Jesus is one of the few who understood the nature of God. If I were to celebrate his birth as such, it would not be on that date.

We have similar beliefs, me and him. But they aren't the same. I'm wondering how far outside your home you've had these conversations.

[habsheaven]

What did Jesus say about God?

[ajbrinn]

The fact you are blind to how religion and some of the most basic laws of science can relate to each other to support a basic plausible theory just blows my mind. As a so called lover of science you seriously need to open up your mind more to things instead of being so filled with hate and bias. And don't ask me to explain it, your the smart science geek you should be able to put 2+2 together and come up with 4, its basic science fact its not hard my man...

[JustAlex]

The fact you are blind to how religion and some of the most basic laws of science can relate to each other to support a basic plausible theory just blows my mind.

Can you tell me these "basic laws of science" and how they relate to religion to support a basic "Plausible theory"?

I don't fully understand your statement.

I don't profess to be an expert of any kind in any field of science, my understanding and knowledge is basic to intermediate (depending on the field).....give me some examples and I'll think about them and give you an appropriate answer.

As a so called lover of science you seriously need to open up your mind more to things instead of being so filled with hate and bias. And don't ask me to explain it, your the smart science geek you should be able to put 2+2 together and come up with 4, its basic science fact its not hard my man...

I should "open my mind"?

My mind is FREELY open....why do you think I ask such questions?

I'm not afraid of god striking me down for saying the things that I say, and if someone out there (anyone) can properly give me evidence for god or any of my questions, I would be thrilled.

So far, no takers.

BTW, Do you believe in god? If so, why?