Ebay rant

[nealp28]

If I'm one of the big guys thats news to me. I'm sure the fees wouldn't bother me if i was a big guy.
Now something i find funny is,the quote """For years and years, cards were overpriced.""" Yet the sentence before you said ebay prices are supply and demand. Well supply and demand was around before ebay. So how can the cards have been overpriced for years and years???? The prices back then were based on supply and demand. I never once said i hate supply and demand. I said i don't like the fees.
And as for your question of when I payed full book for a card is never. Kinda a dumb question to ask a dealer. Wouldn't stay in business long paying the full book and then selling at full book.
It is obvious neither of you rely on cards to put food on the table or to heat the house. Its a much different story when you sell a few thousand dollars worth of stuff that your margin in only around 10% and see you lost almost 8% of it in fees. i'm sure you're both weekend warriors that have a full time job and sell cards on the side just as a bonus.

I will agree that Upper Deck and the others have helped kill the market but I doubt Upper Deck ever told ebay to raise their fees. eBays profits were down this year so the quick fix was to raise fees. That nots the proper way of doing business.

But other then that its obvious neither of you understand the magnitude of fees involved. And probably you both think dealers make huge money on stuff too.

As for your pity, i wasn't looking for it. Just as I would have no pity for you. I was giving my opinion not looking for sympathy. I think I am still allowed to give my opinion without ebay putting a fee on that.

[S.A.M.]

By big guy I didn't mean a big corporation but in the card collecting world you were the big guy. Your shop was probably one of the few in the area so you had little competition and were one of the few places collectors in your area could participate in the hobby, therefore you were able to set prices where you wanted; making you the big guy as opposed to the 12 year old kid in your area who maybe sold a few cards to you or another collector.

I think you, as a dealer, not paying book for cards was exactly artof's point. No offense but before the likes of eBay and Naxcom you were a middleman. For instance I might come into your store and sell you one of my cards for 50% book. Then you turn around and sell that card to artof for 75% book. In this scenario everybody's happy. I can't sell my card anywhere else so I'm glad I got 50% book, you turned a 50% profit so you're happy and artof's happy as well because he got the card he wanted. But if given the opportunity, artof would have bought the card directly from me every time for 50% book instead of 75% book from you. eBay and Naxcom have made this a reality. Now artof and I can deal directly without the middleman markup. This is good for a weekend warrior like myself who buys and sells more for the enjoyment of the process and to buy more cards than for the margin. But it is bad for the dealer who now has to compete at the same level with individuals who aren't doing it as a business.
Don't get me wrong though, the dealer wasn't just a middleman, the card shop owner is always a great source of hobby information, etc. but unfortunately the internet has satisfied that need as well.

That being said I don't agree with the eBay fee hike either. But thus is the fate of the public company. eBays shareholders demand annual growth and because eBay can't keep adding users at the same rate they have to raise fees to keep up. I agree with you that it sucks and it may be a good time to go to Naxcom for everyone, dealers and weekend warriors alike.

[nealp28]

No I wasn't the big guy, there was 5 shops in town when i started and then by the 1992 boom there was prob 20+ shops selling cards. I get what you are saying by middle man. And I really have no prob with having to compete with many sellers. I think the ebay fees are too high from were they were 5 years ago and again my whole point is the paypal thing. Fine ebay can own and run paypal, but there is no way they should be allowed to show paypal items on an individual search or any other way.

The real small guy that makes less of a markup then me can't afford to accept paypal. So even after paying his ebay fees, ebay is saying to him your item isn't good enough to have its own search since you won't accept paypal. That is unfair.

And shareholders demand better value of the stock, raising fees doesn't always = higher profits. Coming up with a way to get more people selling things would have been a much better way.

And as for naxcom, it wouldn't work for me being in canada. I see the $0.10 sale example on the fees page. .10 + $1.50 ship - naxcom fees = $.91. Or i guess i should put a "fair" compensation of $0.91 as they do. Well that .10 card would end up costing me an $0.85 stamp plus the bubble mailer. I'd lose money. And if its a $10 that i have to get insured mean min of $1.70 in stamps.
Good news is eventually i'll dwindle my amount of old stock down so far that i can wake up one day and get out of the business for good.

[S.A.M.]

I agree with you about eBay finding a better way to keep growing without raising fees, unfortunately it doesn't look like their management is that smart.
Best of luck and thanks for the lively discussion, I learned somethings for sure.

[artofaggression]

Ok Neal what i meant by supply and demand is before Ebay brought all of us an international marketplace, one was mainly relegated to buying cards in their local area. So Joe Schmoe hadnt a choice when it came to buying his 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Junior. If he wanted the card, well, he was going to pay nearly book value for the card. Back then, local dealers like yourself set the market by charging book prices. There wasnt any middle ground. Now, Ebay has stepped in to give the common man that middle-ground platform. There is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more supply available at the same demand, and this causes prices to be driven down. Of course, think about it, why have prices dropped in the first place? Prices dropped because of free market competition. People like you and me are willing to see at lower prices and ultimately accept lower margins. Look at Wal Mart - do you think they have high margins?? No, but they buy all of their goods at wholesale prices and they sell high volumes to compensate. Actually Wal Mart tells companies what they will pay for their items, and if they decline to sell at that price, they will lose shelf space. Im not comparing you to Wal Mart, but thats a blue print for success,and no one in the card market has that sort of market domination in regard to cards, save possible DaCardWorld.

But you must look at the fees and understand they come witht he territory. Ebay, or Pay Pal for that matter arent self sufficient. And SAM is right, although Ebay continues to grow and make money, shareholders have seen a slowing to that growth. They arent losing money, its just not flowing in like mad nuts like it initially was. So to keep returns up, Ebay had to do something. Jst like you would do Neal (or have done before Ebay came along).

[nealp28]

Now you're talking apples and oranges. When the 1989 UD baseball came out it was ground breaking. It was the nicest baseball set ever made up till that time. So of course prices were high. Upper Deck continued printing 89 ud well into the early 90's. So supply out-weighted demand even before the coming of ebay. And in 89 griffey was a mega star and today griffey is a has been.
Walmart goes even further then setting the price they will pay. They don't pay for certain products until they sell them. But still Walmart doesn't carry singles last time I checked.
How about some diversification on the part of ebay first. Maybe some cost cutting measures, better marketing. If they keep raising the fees eventually more people will say screw it. Then they will need to raise fees more and more people will leave and so on and so on. Biting the hand that feeds you never works.
Now as for paypal, is there really a need for a $0.30 transaction fee on a $0.99 sale?? Mostly likely not. Is there a need for a $0.30 transaction fee on a $200.00. No chance in hell.
But once again i come back to not only are the fees way to high but the fact they push paypal accepted items. It is an unethical business practice to do so. They prefer to get that extra bit of money and say screw the guy that can't afford to take paypal. The same guy that pays his ebay fees that pays all their paychecks.

[artofaggression]

I only used 89 UD Baseball as an example - the principal still holds true that collectors were decentralized back in the day. I remember back then when someone in town pulled and sold a Barry Sanders 89 Score Rookie, or a 1993 Beam Team Sahq it was big news amongst collectors. Today, the Ebay has permeated all small-town markets and brought them together on a larger scale.

Its typical that if there were only a few stores in an area that the cardshops hold the upper hand. But competition serves as a driver mechanism to lower prices. Prices of sold cards have dropped because someone, somewhere is willing to sell their product at a cheaper price. Price is the most important thing the consumer is worried about. I do not know how you sell your cards, but its obivious that selling singles/lots are risky. Sealed boxes seem to be the only method that can produce a safe return. I buy and sell cards,and i'll tell you, theres nothing more exciting than ripping open those packs, anticipating some 1/1 card or the like. So selling sealed has the added value not seen in most products purchased in the world.

How is it unethical for Ebay to cross promote its own company? Go to Pizza hut, Taco Bell, Subway, etc., and go to dispense a drink from the foutain. Your choices will all be Pepsi Products. PepsiCo owns those fastfood chains. Is it unethical for Pepsi to force Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, and Subway patrons to drink Pepsi? Or should they let Coca Cola just slide right in and steal their market share? if Ebay doesnt use Pay Pal for Ebay, what the hell should they use it for? Remember, youre given an option, unlike the people who eat at Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, etc., not to use Pay Pal.

[tutall]

i agree completely with art. I have also never tried to open a card shop but it has made someone like me able to take my card and sell it on an international market and enabled me to buy new cards... even 5 years ago if i pulled a sweet card and the card shop was just not interested in it... and no one else was either.. what am i supposed to do with it? now i can stick it on the bay and watch it sell. As far as paypal goes, i think it is worth the fees to be able to have the money NOW.. without it there were always deals on ebay that fell through simply because the buyer didnt go to the PO and send money out. I would rather pay a small fee then go through the process of relisting everything

Mitch

[nealp28]

Art
I was never in a small-town market. I'm between Toronto and Detroit. I did card shows form Toronto to Windsor. I was in a pretty big market with a ton of competion. I didn't set the prices, thats how they were when i got into the business.

There is no such thing as a safe return. Sealed boxes have almost zero markup room. Unless you have the buying power of dave & adam its hit or miss. Or if you get lucky and you save the right boxes for a few years, like with 2001 SPA Football. And on a lot of wax it sells on ebay way below wholesale cost. Now I know thats not ebays fault. That is the card companies fault.

Now for your Taco Bell analogy, it's not the same. Taco Bell only sells pepsi. If they sold coke too it could work. Here's an analogy that does work;

"Mall X" buys out mastercard. Then they tell all their stores you can take mastercard payments but we will add an extra transaction fee. So some stores say yes and some say no. The ones that say yes get prime locations within the mall (front door, own entrance, more promotion) and those that say no get stuck in the lower traffic areas of the mall. Would that be ethical for a mall to do?

tutall
if you were in some business and ebay came along and cut your profits by 80% you wouldn't have the same veiw as you do. But you are still young and maybe one day you will understand. It might take you losing a job because a robotic line can do it faster and cheaper. If in 10 years you wanted to open your own business and then all of a sudden the item you sell is being sold by every joe schmoe that doesn't have a business. They have no overhead, no employees, no business taxes to pay. Tell me how you would veiw that. There is always 2 sides of a coin to look at. I accept the competion from guys that don't have a valid business license. I'll do a card show where the guy beside me is there just for fun and couldn't care if he only gets 25% of book. I'll accept all that. But paypal is overboard. You might think its great when you sell a few items. Its the fast food world of immediate payment, instant gratification. Sell a few thousand dollars worth of stuff on ebay and get back to me on the fees and paypal. I have no prob waiting for the money order to arrive in the mail. Heck I even take personal checks. I ship when it clears. I'll do anything to save a buck. Its better then overcharging people for things.

[artofaggression]

You tell me Neal, when you buy a box of Leaf Limted FB or SP Authentic FB, how much does UD and Donruss charge respectively??? i'd really like to know. I think there has to be some wiggle room for margin, because i see a huge variance from one site to another (I saw Leaf Limited FB on DCSSportscards.com selling at $219, and on GCXOnline.com going for $249, and this wasnt a loss leader either, you dont do that with premium cards).

I do not think that people will not buy off of you because you prefer them to pay traditionally. Hell, slip these people an extra pack of Topps Chrome or Press Pass or something to let them know you appreciate their business. But for you to surmise that because you'd rather not use Pay Pal you are crapped on buy the buying public is preposterous. But I do have a q, do you pay with Pay Pal, or are you weary that you're screwing the seller out of some money?