starting to hate panini

[BigAl_83]

Panini is originall from Italy, but that has nothing to do with Panini America being its own organisation based in the US, with former Beckett's own Tracy Hackler running the promotions. So its not really fair to judge on somebody's country.

Im also getting tired with Panini's sticker auto's, especially at the price the boxes sell for. Boxes that cost $150+ should have zero sticker auto's in it.

But i do like to point out that it wasnt that great before Panini either. Im still waiting for UD Exquisite redemptions from 2009!! Customer service for UD still stinks, because i asked for replacements for two UD redemption in march 2011, they said replacements will be send within 6-8 weeks. I had to ask what was going on last week because still havent received anything. The answer was they were trying to catch up because of a large amount of request (how can that be if you have no licence anymore?!). That tells me that UD also either had to many redemptions or has many customers that are tired of waiting 1,5+ years for a redemption to be fulfilled.

Topps also didnt have a lot of the top stars for auto's, no jordan,lebron,durant,kobe etc.
Topps had/has some very nice products, but also the ugliest sticker auto's in card history for many of their products (talk about a sticker auto not blending in!):


All im trying to say is that not everything was peachy before Panini either. If UD and/or Topps were really that great and if they were really interested in bringing us some good basketball products that they would have lost their licence?

And probably when Panini's licence is up and other company's could step in again they will also need sticker auto's. They have to get every player to come by to sign on-card stuff which is near impossible if you want to start selling products.

I did expect Panini to do better this second year, which they havent done, still too many manufactured stuff (with the manu Logoman hitting rockbottom) and sticker auto's. Perhaps they can start getting some quality stuff produced during the lockout and come back with some good stuff.

[Sidthekidc87]

Im in no way defending Panini, but basketball, in general, is a very hard product to produce

In the NBA there are only 60 or so rookies - most of the first 15 rookies sell really well. So right off the bat we are looking at a poor rookie checklist - Panini can't make an all rookie based product because they would have to put out too many top tier rookies in the product to have the cards keep their value.

Football and Hockey, on the other hand, have tons of rookies, and only 3 - 5 are really valuable each year. This gives the company the ability to produce all rookie hit sets like Inception, Finest, etc.

Also, in basketball, people just aren't happy with star auto cards. For example, very few people get excited about a Brandon Roy auto card. Or a Dwight Howard auto card. Unless they are rookie autos, the cards don't have that much value. With Hockey and football, star veterans seem to sell much better. All star QB autos sell well. In hockey a lot of star veterans sell well. basketball is just hard. Most likely because basketball is getting less popular year after year.

[whalechaser]

Im in no way defending Panini, but basketball, in general, is a very hard product to produce

In the NBA there are only 60 or so rookies - most of the first 15 rookies sell really well. So right off the bat we are looking at a poor rookie checklist - Panini can't make an all rookie based product because they would have to put out too many top tier rookies in the product to have the cards keep their value.

Football and Hockey, on the other hand, have tons of rookies, and only 3 - 5 are really valuable each year. This gives the company the ability to produce all rookie hit sets like Inception, Finest, etc.

Also, in basketball, people just aren't happy with star auto cards. For example, very few people get excited about a Brandon Roy auto card. Or a Dwight Howard auto card. Unless they are rookie autos, the cards don't have that much value. With Hockey and football, star veterans seem to sell much better. All star QB autos sell well. In hockey a lot of star veterans sell well. basketball is just hard. Most likely because basketball is getting less popular year after year.

I think that's a good analysis. People are not valuing star autos and rookies because of overproduction.

If making basketball cards IS hard, and if the NBA is decreasing in popularity. Decrease production. This is especially doable if you have no competition and is the sole owner of a license. Let upper deck churn out all of their college licensed Jordan junk they want, don't worry about that.

Decreasing production of cards, less workers and less over head making those ridiculous manufactured logomans, less money needed to make cards. and more focus on designing the 3 products.

You make 3 products a year:

Low end Panini ($50~ish a box, $3~ish a pack)- 1 box 24 packs. Base with action photos so that base cards are actually worth collecting set of 200-300 base so that all the team rosters are accounted for. Features: True rookie cards 1 per box (a la 87 fleer, no parallels), 1 common insert set (1-30 of the various players seeded 1:12 or 1:8, 2-3 per hobby box), 1 rare insert set (1-15 of the best players seeded 1 per case #/100), 1 rare rc auto photoshoot set (1 per 4-8 cases), 1 chase card well designed auto of Kobe (#/24) (1 per 30 cases or some impossible odd like that). NO GU's, No parallels, No "Legends", no sticker autos, but they can do their "meet Kobe golden ticket" or that stupid video box redemption, I'm sure kids love video boxes.

Mid end Panini ($100~ish a box, $10-20~a pack) - 1 box 8 or 12 packs. No RC's, no RC auto's/patch. Nice higher end looking base cards of stars only (100 card set). Features: 1 Rookie insert set (1:32), Parallels of base cards #/100, #/10, #/1 (seeded 1:32, 1:64, 1:128. 20-30 card set of GU #/100 (1:8) Patch #/10 (1:128), Logoman #/1 (1:360), 20-30 card set of non-Kobe auto's #/100 (1:8), 10 card set of Dual/Multi autos #/10 (1:360), 1 Kobe chase auto #/24 (some impossible odd again), Sticker autos are fine here. No Legends. No manufactured junk.

High end Panini (~500-ish a pack, ~1500 a case) - base set #/299 - 60 cards. 1/1 Masterpiece parallels. Rookie Patch Auto's, Veteran/Legend Patch Auto, multi patches, multi autos, multi tags, logoman 1/1s, inscription autos, 1/1 game used lettermans, whatever. They do National Treasures just fine in seems. 1 pack 4 or 5 cards. 1 or 2 base cards, 1 patch or auto, 1 Rookie Auto/Patch, 1 Veteran/Legend Auto Patch. Multi Patches at 1 per case, Multi Auto's at 1 per case, Tags/Multitags 1 / 3 cases. Logoman's limited/ 3 cases etc, Kobe chase auto #/24 (impossible odds again). No Sticker autos.

If there are 3 products a year following those types of sell sheets I'm sure they'll fly off the shelves. Less products = more time for design, more time for getting autos (less redemptions), more time for quality control (no more upside down logoman, autos covered by design of card). Less products = less money spend on workers, operating costs. Having a set formula on 3 tiers of products gives the company a good direction, and less money spent on hiring the group of genius that comes up with "video cards" and "manufactured logomans".

If they can do those 3 really well, that improve the company's image and gain collector's favor. That means building client base and revenues in the future. And once those 3 products are established, the company can make more products depending on whether at that time basketball is popular or not. However, the ratio of low to mid to high end products must be 4:2:1 to ensure accessibility of cards to collectors, and also making sure that autos/gus are not overproduced. Also limiting Kobe autos to being chase cards in all products will most likely not hurt sales of boxes and cases at all, might increase it even.

But of course, Panini decides to just follow in the footsteps of Topps and UD when they really could have made a difference. What's worse, their cards designs in general are worse than Topps and UD. So they're not even good at what they're doing wrong. The majority of their product is garbage; sure there are a few diamonds here or there that has been buried in the garbage, but I'm not willing to put in money and time to go garbage digging.

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

lol. I can say all the same you just complained about .... about upper deck and topps. but to each their own.

[Sidthekidc87]

I think that's a good analysis. People are not valuing star autos and rookies because of overproduction.

If making basketball cards IS hard, and if the NBA is decreasing in popularity. Decrease production. This is especially doable if you have no competition and is the sole owner of a license. Let upper deck churn out all of their college licensed Jordan junk they want, don't worry about that.

Decreasing production of cards, less workers and less over head making those ridiculous manufactured logomans, less money needed to make cards. and more focus on designing the 3 products.

You make 3 products a year:

Low end Panini ($50~ish a box, $3~ish a pack)- 1 box 24 packs. Base with action photos so that base cards are actually worth collecting set of 200-300 base so that all the team rosters are accounted for. Features: True rookie cards 1 per box (a la 87 fleer, no parallels), 1 common insert set (1-30 of the various players seeded 1:12 or 1:8, 2-3 per hobby box), 1 rare insert set (1-15 of the best players seeded 1 per case #/100), 1 rare rc auto photoshoot set (1 per 4-8 cases), 1 chase card well designed auto of Kobe (#/24) (1 per 30 cases or some impossible odd like that). NO GU's, No parallels, No "Legends", no sticker autos, but they can do their "meet Kobe golden ticket" or that stupid video box redemption, I'm sure kids love video boxes.

Mid end Panini ($100~ish a box, $10-20~a pack) - 1 box 8 or 12 packs. No RC's, no RC auto's/patch. Nice higher end looking base cards of stars only (100 card set). Features: 1 Rookie insert set (1:32), Parallels of base cards #/100, #/10, #/1 (seeded 1:32, 1:64, 1:128. 20-30 card set of GU #/100 (1:8) Patch #/10 (1:128), Logoman #/1 (1:360), 20-30 card set of non-Kobe auto's #/100 (1:8), 10 card set of Dual/Multi autos #/10 (1:360), 1 Kobe chase auto #/24 (some impossible odd again), Sticker autos are fine here. No Legends. No manufactured junk.

High end Panini (~500-ish a pack, ~1500 a case) - base set #/299 - 60 cards. 1/1 Masterpiece parallels. Rookie Patch Auto's, Veteran/Legend Patch Auto, multi patches, multi autos, multi tags, logoman 1/1s, inscription autos, 1/1 game used lettermans, whatever. They do National Treasures just fine in seems. 1 pack 4 or 5 cards. 1 or 2 base cards, 1 patch or auto, 1 Rookie Auto/Patch, 1 Veteran/Legend Auto Patch. Multi Patches at 1 per case, Multi Auto's at 1 per case, Tags/Multitags 1 / 3 cases. Logoman's limited/ 3 cases etc, Kobe chase auto #/24 (impossible odds again). No Sticker autos.

If there are 3 products a year following those types of sell sheets I'm sure they'll fly off the shelves. Less products = more time for design, more time for getting autos (less redemptions), more time for quality control (no more upside down logoman, autos covered by design of card). Less products = less money spend on workers, operating costs. Having a set formula on 3 tiers of products gives the company a good direction, and less money spent on hiring the group of genius that comes up with "video cards" and "manufactured logomans".

If they can do those 3 really well, that improve the company's image and gain collector's favor. That means building client base and revenues in the future. And once those 3 products are established, the company can make more products depending on whether at that time basketball is popular or not. However, the ratio of low to mid to high end products must be 4:2:1 to ensure accessibility of cards to collectors, and also making sure that autos/gus are not overproduced. Also limiting Kobe autos to being chase cards in all products will most likely not hurt sales of boxes and cases at all, might increase it even.

But of course, Panini decides to just follow in the footsteps of Topps and UD when they really could have made a difference. What's worse, their cards designs in general are worse than Topps and UD. So they're not even good at what they're doing wrong. The majority of their product is garbage; sure there are a few diamonds here or there that has been buried in the garbage, but I'm not willing to put in money and time to go garbage digging.

Even a lot of the all time greats dont sell well - Clyde Drexler, Wilkins, Gervin, Erving, even Magic.....none sell that well.

In basketball, unless you get a top rookie auto, Kobe, Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Maravich, and a few very select centers, the cards just dont hold value.

In Football, like I already said, most starting QBs have high valued cards - Flacco, Ryan, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Brady, Brees - rookie or not these guys sell and these guys have demand.

In hockey, stars surprisingly sell as good as a lot of the rookies. And a lot of the all time greats, whether they are greats from what is regarded as maybe the "elite 10," or just all around great players, sell really well.

Baseball needs no analysis - everything from baseball sells - stars, rookies, retired guys, legends, or just regular hall of famers.

In basketball unless you are pulling those elite rookies, or Kobe, lebron, and only 6 or 7 greats, most auto cards can be found for 30 or less.

[reggie31]

its cool man no problem

[reggie31]

i just feel its not the same with out ud and topps panini cant be the only ones out there

[whalechaser]

Even a lot of the all time greats dont sell well - Clyde Drexler, Wilkins, Gervin, Erving, even Magic.....none sell that well.

In basketball, unless you get a top rookie auto, Kobe, Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Maravich, and a few very select centers, the cards just dont hold value.

In Football, like I already said, most starting QBs have high valued cards - Flacco, Ryan, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Brady, Brees - rookie or not these guys sell and these guys have demand.

In hockey, stars surprisingly sell as good as a lot of the rookies. And a lot of the all time greats, whether they are greats from what is regarded as maybe the "elite 10," or just all around great players, sell really well.

Baseball needs no analysis - everything from baseball sells - stars, rookies, retired guys, legends, or just regular hall of famers.

In basketball unless you are pulling those elite rookies, or Kobe, lebron, and only 6 or 7 greats, most auto cards can be found for 30 or less.

I don't know the other sports so I won't get into those.

As for basketball, I'm not sure of your definition of "selling well", I do follow a lot of basketball cards though. The problem with basketball RC's and their value is again overproduction, started in the early 90's slowed down slightly in the mid 90's and then went way out of proportion after the 99 season (the Elton Brand Rookie year, I think he had 30+ or 40 different rookies or something ridiculous like that). The RC's from the late 80's hold really well. The Barkley and Karl Malone RC's sell alright, though the Barkley was heavily counterfeited so the range of ungraded ones are wacky. Even Pippen RC's has seen a uptick lately, used to be able to get one for around 5-6 Dlvd, now it's closer to 10. The problem for basketball RC's is overproduction, cut that and they'll sell better on the secondary Market and they'll hold value.

Inserts will sell fine if they are designed well and is somewhat rare (anything with odds higher than 1:40 packs). Not even looking at 90's inserts, there are a few sets now in the early 2000's that are beginning to do well, I know cause I collect two of those sets. I wont' say which ones cause I don't need even more competition, but I've been bidding over full book (@anywhere from 50 - 150% over book) for some of these and still consistently lost out. These were cards of borderline stars no less, think AK-47, Latrell Sprewell, Kenyon Martin types. Inserts will sell in basketball as long as they're a) well designed b) slightly rare.

GU's all killed by overproduction. Nice patches and large swatches hold some value, but even value is declining there. Overproduction, manufactured mess (started by Upper deck, Topps joined in right after to compete, and Panini continues to make it worse).

As for auto's. Just looking at legends, I can name you way more people than just Kobe/MJ/Lebron & 6-7 greats that sell for at least $50+ (NBA cards, no college stuff): Penny Hardaway, Kemp, Mourning, Barkley, Shaq, Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Malone, Stockton, Reggie Miller, Oscar Robertson, billy cunningham, debusschere, bing, bill bradley, mikan. . . That's 15 off the top of my head. The full list of $50+ is probably closer around to 30+, there used to be more like Horry, Kevin Johnson, etc. But guess what, overproduction killed that like it killed most of the other ones (Upper Deck and Topps absolutely destroyed the value of Drexler, Hakeem, and Gervin, and dragged down Stockton's and Magics for a while.) A Terry Porter on card auto lands $20+ thanks to non-overproduction.

Basketball sells like crap right now because Upper Deck & Topps killed it trying to out do each other; they overproduced like mad and gave up on innovations for the most part (Canvas autos from Chronology was great and different, though the original concept was probably stolen from Topps Gallery). That's why basketball is not selling well right now, not really because there are no interest in basketball. There's worldwide interest in basketball since it's becoming the 2nd most popular sport after soccer.

Formula for success is there - base cards (either well designed or a #'ed set), gu's (limited), inserts (well designed, limited), auto's (limited), rc's (limited). The odds have to be changed again.

Panini thinks that people will not buy boxes with terrible odds at a Auto/GU, that's absolutely untrue if you look at how many 90's boxes are moved at $60+ for boxes mainly just full of base. Panini has the exclusive license right now, meaning no competition for NBA cards. They have an opportunity to change things (e.g. my 3 product a year plan), but they choose to just follow whatever UD and Topps were doing. Even worse, they aren't even following well (crappy card designs that are recycled endlessly, honestly the only thing different between the "team logo" autos from gold standard and 09-10 prestige or whatever other product they put that signed fabric in is the card border). UD and Topps were killing the hobby, making basketball not profitable, so how does it make business sense to continue that. In any other business, they are laying groundwork for the next 5 years, I don't see why card companies need to be so short-sighted.

I would imagine that there would be some buzz if Panini announced that they would only do 3 products next year, the preview of all 3 products look gorgeous, and the sell sheets make the cards seem valuable. Great companies do things differently, not just follow the industry norm especially when that norm is not working.

[policeradio556]

I don't collect basketball just not really my bag... However I am still shocked to see super high end products out on the market and selling (i.e. $300-500 for a 1 pack box) in this economy... I don't think its about how many Companies are in the market but how many products are released by each... Topps and Topps Chrome are pretty much the same for me just with a little added shimmer...Bowman and Bowman Chrome Same thing... Finest and Bowmans Best same thing... The market is flooded with multiples of the same piece of garbage... Don't blame the companies that are taking your almighty dollar...Blame your fellow collectors who keep shelling out money for it...

[Hilfiger1975]

i don't collect basketball just not really my bag... However i am still shocked to see super high end products out on the market and selling (i.e. $300-500 for a 1 pack box) in this economy... I don't think its about how many companies are in the market but how many products are released by each... Topps and topps chrome are pretty much the same for me just with a little added shimmer...bowman and bowman chrome same thing... Finest and bowmans best same thing... The market is flooded with multiples of the same piece of garbage... Don't blame the companies that are taking your almighty dollar...blame your fellow collectors who keep shelling out money for it...

bingo!